Another "My car should have ran faster" thread

[cuda6pak]

Old setup - girdled 109, port work on stock irons, 208 comp cams, THDP, Hooker exhaust w/dump, PTE44, stock intercooler with dutt neck, TT chip, 43psi line off, (v5.5 93 pump, maxed out WOT fuel and +1* of timing in both 1/2 and 3/4), blue top 42.5's, hotwired 340, Art carr tranny (5200rpm shifts) and re-stalled D5 converter, Nitto 275 DR's on stock rims.

My best time then was 12.29@112 (2.0 60ft) back in January on about a 55 degree night.

I finally got to the track last night with the following changes - CPT66BB, Cottons FMIC, 60lb inj, TT alky chip, Alkycontrol dual nozzle kit, fully built transmission (5700-5800 shifts), and a PTC 9.5" 3200 stall, dual air bags with 5psi in drivers and 20psi in passenger.

The first pass was on 19psi and I went 12.5@107 with a 1.80 60ft

Second pass was slightly turned up at 20psi and went mid 12's again @108

The third pass I turned it up to 24psi and only went 12.3@110 with a 1.85 60ft.

I had to let off slightly on the last two passes in 1st gear due to some wheel hop but I thought this setup was going to run a hell of a lot faster than this. All of the passes had 0 degrees of knock and mid 700's O2.

The only thing I can think of is that the weather played a factor with high humidity and about 85 degrees compared to January. The other thing on my mind is that with a dual nozzle kit and a voltage booster it may be drowning it out with alky. But other than that I wasn't too impressed with the outing with all the money in this thing

 

[Razor]

Put it down to a single nozzle until it runs high 10's. Cap off the M10 and leave the M15 in place. Put the blue gain knob on 6. Start there alky wise.

 

[Razor]

Get rid of volt booster.

 

[Razor]

Is the car on slicks? If so.. bring boost up before leaving. The bigger turbo needs to be spooled before you take off.

Also post your timeslip as to 1/8 MPH and 1/4 MPH.

Your car at 20 PSI boost will run the same with a 44 and a 66. The 66 starts waking up when the 44 starts dropping off. meaning the 66 is capable of mid 10's, but that type of ET doesnt happen when its running 12's at 20 PSI. I would question the head work and cam choice. As most Buicks with ported heads and cam should be in the 11's.. unless there is something else going on.

If you have the tires, put the chip into program mode and crank up the timing on the 1-2. That will bring down the 60 and 330= a lower time slip.

You make a lot of changes, you go back to square one. These cars are sensitive to combination and their changes. have fun with the car, and be patient with the boost. Sometimes something stupid like a clogged air filter can drive you nuts.

Lastly, you mentioned mid 700's for O2's.. that is low considering the amount of fuel and alcohol being pumped in. You may need to check your fuel pump/fuel system out for weakness. O2's should be in the way upper 700's lower 800's.

HTH

 

[cuda6pak]

Is the car on slicks? If so.. bring boost up before leaving. The bigger turbo needs to be spooled before you take off.

Also post your timeslip as to 1/8 MPH and 1/4 MPH.

Your car at 20 PSI boost will run the same with a 44 and a 66. The 66 starts waking up when the 44 starts dropping off. meaning the 66 is capable of mid 10's, but that type of ET doesnt happen when its running 12's at 20 PSI. I would question the head work and cam choice. As most Buicks with ported heads and cam should be in the 11's.. unless there is something else going on.

If you have the tires, put the chip into program mode and crank up the timing on the 1-2. That will bring down the 60 and 330= a lower time slip.

You make a lot of changes, you go back to square one. These cars are sensitive to combination and their changes. have fun with the car, and be patient with the boost. Sometimes something stupid like a clogged air filter can drive you nuts.

Lastly, you mentioned mid 700's for O2's.. that is low considering the amount of fuel and alcohol being pumped in. You may need to check your fuel pump/fuel system out for weakness. O2's should be in the way upper 700's lower 800's.

HTH

The 1/8th times were all 7.8-7.9@86-88mph. These runs were on Nitto DR's so not much traction.

I'm not too concerned with ET right now as I know thats a whole other ballgame. I'm more concerned about the trap speed as it's obvious that it's not making the power it should. Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

[Razor]

Was the exhuast un-capped?

If not, that is another thing. Put the Nitto's at 14 PSI tire pressure and heat em up. Leave at 3-4 PSI boost.

Your 1/8 MPH is low for the boost, unless your on stock heads.. or have something else robbing power big time. that is why I mentioned was the exhuast un-capped.

 

[cuda6pak]

Was the exhuast un-capped?

If not, that is another thing. Put the Nitto's at 14 PSI tire pressure and heat em up. Leave at 3-4 PSI boost.

Your 1/8 MPH is low for the boost, unless your on stock heads.. or have something else robbing power big time. that is why I mentioned was the exhuast un-capped.

No I was running with the exhaust capped. I used to run 90+mph all day long in the 1/8th with the old setup though.

 

[TurboDave]

One other thing I see that might account for your bad 60's times, that I don't think anybody mentioned.

Your air bag pressures are backward. You need the higher pressure in the right side and lower in the left. But not so high the suspension can't do it's job.
My recommendation would be 5 left, 15 right, and tweak from there.

 

[KL Mallender]

Are you running a tight turbine housing? (.63-.82)
I agree that the mph is low for boost level.
I would suggest a backpressure test at O2 sensor location, measure how much exhaust pressure you are building vs intake boost, and does it continue to climb after you reach wastegate setting. There is a lot more to "Porting" an exhaust housing than opening up wastegate hole.
My bet is that you will surprise yourself when you see how it is now as rpm climbs, the difference is night and day when you find "Good Boost"

Kevin.

 

[Razor]

No I was running with the exhaust capped. I used to run 90+mph all day long in the 1/8th with the old setup though.

But your searching for a problem and something doesnt make sense. Easiest way to troubleshoot is to eliminate all obstacles. Your exhuast can be one huge one. A collapsed/plugged muffler will rob tons of power.

Just like the air filter.. make a pass without it. Worse case car still runs like poop

Then you know what its not. Turbo cars need air in/out as free as possible.

 

[cuda6pak]

Are you running a tight turbine housing? (.63-.82)
I agree that the mph is low for boost level.
I would suggest a backpressure test at O2 sensor location, measure how much exhaust pressure you are building vs intake boost, and does it continue to climb after you reach wastegate setting. There is a lot more to "Porting" an exhaust housing than opening up wastegate hole.
My bet is that you will surprise yourself when you see how it is now as rpm climbs, the difference is night and day when you find "Good Boost"

Kevin.

It's a .63 housing

Good call Razor, I'll have to take it back out there on lower boost and see whats affecting it via air filter, exhaust, or alky overload.

 

[cuda6pak]

Updating the thread...


Just got back from the track, the only difference was I capped off one of the alky nozzles, and put a new fuel filter in. Also I checked and made sure that I was getting full fuel pressure on 19psi and that the pressure was not falling.

I went right off the street on 19psi and basically ran the exact same time. 12.6 with a 1.80 60ft....everything was identical to my last pass on 19psi with both nozzles, EXCEPT my trap speed which was only 101mph. The only thing I can think of is that I must have hit the brakes too early on the big end. But still I was hoping that taking out one of the nozzles was keeping it from drowning out. Anyways my lowest O2 was 785@96. Here's a rundown of the pass I did in July and the one tonight and I'm pretty sure I just braked too early

7/29/09
60 - 1.809
330 - 5.130
1/8 - 7.957@86.31
1000 - 10.426
1/4 - 12.526@107.03

8/20/09
60 - 1.802
330 - 5.129
1/8 - 7.989@85.32
1000 - 10.494
1/4 - 12.621@101.60


Got ready for the next pass and opened the dump and then it started raining.

I still feel like the mph is too damn slow for the setup. Hell I went 86mph with my old setup in the 1/8th on 16psi PUMP gas NO alky! I'm not worried about the ET right now, it's obviously missing power somewhere. I'm going to pull the valve covers off tomorrow and see what I find.

 

[Razor]

Why do you have two nozzles installed on a 12 second car. That is needed for cars on the 10's. I'll start with that. You use alky to stop knock. If one nozzle stops knock, thats all it needs.

Next when you buy a chip made for alky, its expected for you to run 23+ PSI boost unless the chip was made for lower boost. Contact your chip makes and confirm for how much boost the chip was made for.. considering the alky. Running 19 PSI pig rich wont make more power than 16 PSI tuned. Hope this explains why the motor is not picking up.

You need to look at O2 levels, whether with a wideband or learn to tune of your stock O2. Tuning is adding/substracting fuel, adding subtracting timing.

Barring any mechanical issues like weak valve springs.

before you chase mechanical, better be sure the air fuel numbers are where they need to be. Especially how its nosing over on the big end.

 

[cuda6pak]

Why do you have two nozzles installed on a 12 second car. That is needed for cars on the 10's. I'll start with that. You use alky to stop knock. If one nozzle stops knock, thats all it needs.

Next when you buy a chip made for alky, its expected for you to run 23+ PSI boost unless the chip was made for lower boost. Contact your chip makes and confirm for how much boost the chip was made for.. considering the alky. Running 19 PSI pig rich wont make more power than 16 PSI tuned. Hope this explains why the motor is not picking up.

You need to look at O2 levels, whether with a wideband or learn to tune of your stock O2. Tuning is adding/substracting fuel, adding subtracting timing.

Barring any mechanical issues like weak valve springs.

before you chase mechanical, better be sure the air fuel numbers are where they need to be. Especially how its nosing over on the big end.

I bought the twin nozzle kit because the used FMIC I bought was already drilled with two holes and I had no way to weld it shut. Plus I figured a built 109 with ported heads/intake and a 66BB on 28psi could need two in the future. And the fact that I went 12.2 with the same motor, TE44@23psi, and a stock intercooler, trans and converter. I asked you what I should do and you said try it on 3-4 setting and if its two much back it down to one nozzle, which is what I did for last nights outting.

The chip is a 5.6 TT chip made for 24-26psi. I just figured I should get it straightened out at lower boost before I turned it up. Will it hurt that bad running 19psi on a chip made for 26psi? I mean I know it should hurt, but 107mph hurt?

The O2's seem to always be a little fat in mid range RPM (820's or so), and then lean out a bit on top end (760-790 depending on boost). I figured the pump was getting weak but I checked the FP and it was holding strong at 62psi on my 19psi run.

 

[87NAT]

I think your pig rich on the bottom and still a little rich on the top. You need to crank that boost up.
High timing in 1-2 gear and low timing in 3-4. Use the TT features to pull WOT first gear fuel to get that thing launching. That PTC ought to feel like the finger of GOD swatting you from behind on launch when spooled properly.

That converter also takes alot of power on the top end to be be efficient. If you are rich and/or not running alot of boost and not making good power that PTC will drag you down. Some guys I know have to manual shift their cars with that converter to bring the RPM's up into the 5000+ power band.

Like Razor said...new combo= patience + track time

 

[Grumpy]

turn up the boost.. 19#s is like having a beautiful girlfriend and ... well you get the picture

 

[bison]

You have several problems. One probably being fuel delivery. Id start with a wideband and stop throwing parts at it and shoot for 10.8:1. You should be able to run 10.60's at 28psi. When you are up over 25psi id go back to the 2 nozzle and target 10.6:1. Those are safe numbers. You need to verify fuel pressure is increasing at a 1:1 rate with boost.

 

[bison]

Sounds like you need a re-burn unless your experiencing boost creep up top. I ran a TT chip about 2 years ago with a very similar combo and it went 10.88@126 before i got the boot after my first pass with the combo. Boost was 23-24psi and i had a dinosaur AC converter in there that slipped a lot. You really need a way to read the a/f to be able to tune. Narrow O2 numbers are crap for tuning

 

[cuda6pak]

Sounds like you need a re-burn unless your experiencing boost creep up top. I ran a TT chip about 2 years ago with a very similar combo and it went 10.88@126 before i got the boot after my first pass with the combo. Boost was 23-24psi and i had a dinosaur AC converter in there that slipped a lot. You really need a way to read the a/f to be able to tune. Narrow O2 numbers are crap for tuning

No boost creep up top

 

[cuda6pak]

Tried to get a good pic of the valve springs but nothing really good. From what I can tell they are double and so I'm pretty sure they were replaced at one point. (Supposed to have been with the motor was rebuilt 4 years ago, which I assume they did)