Best Front Mount?????
- Thread starter Vader 87
- Start date
Well, I think I'm leaning towards the PTE front mount cause the V2 sounds great, but getting one from Tony sounds like a major PITA and from what I'm hearing the performance gains will be about the same with either one. From what I'm hearing just about any front mount will work and you'll see about the same performance gains unless your making over 500 - 600hp which on a stock block is more than enough
I say pick one and go racing!
I say pick one and go racing!I cant give you numbers on the V-2 because I did not have a MAT mounted in the V-2. The V-1 v/s the PTE my MAT on the DFI shows the V-1 40 deg cooler than the PTE and even better on hot days. The MAT is mounted in the intercooler outlet on both intercoolers. Cant give you ET data because I never ran the car with the PTE on the car. The cooler temps were good enough for me to choose the V-1.
For what it's worth, my car ran signifigantly cooler with the Ford unit vs the Spearco. I have done a couple cooling mods and with the Spearco in the summer temps would be around 190 degrees if I drove it easy and the fans on all the time. With the Ford unit, once I was moving 40+mph I could turn the fan off and stay at 160 as long as I was driving nice.
>Lets see some real #'s. Lets see MAT #'s from the Plenum on the same car, same day as its crossing the finish line. Flow #'s don't mean squat if the core isn't cooling right. I heard PTE's core is an awesome design, but the tanks block the radiator too much for me. I heard the MAT #'s on Cas's weren't in PTE's ballpark. I am curious to see Cotons MAT #'s. think his cooler has the best of everyone elses.<
REAL NUMBERS!!!!!
Did you not see the effeciency numbers on the chart I gave?
94% at 1500 cfm and 17 mph!! Those are real! Not, my car did this, or should do that. Thats not real due to many variables.
If the core flows a ton of cfm at 94% effeciency, I'm going with it is going to cool down your boost alot. 94% effecient on an air to air.
There are some basic intercooler tests. They are set up with inlet air at or atleast around 350 degrees. So, the smaller turbos will see a difference on a front mount in both spoolup due to more cfm at any given pressure loss and then in a lower outlet charge due to the effeciency at any given cfm. You win both ways on a better flowing and effecient intercooler. Your motor will see a difference with an intercooler below 500 hp. Maybe not like 3 tenths, but definitely not the same.
By the way, dequick has a degree in engineering. Does any of these other intercooler designers or end tank welders? DOUBT IT! His intercoolers are to good to be true, flow more, more effecient, and are cheaper.
I am not trying to attack anyone here, but it is real easy to just put out a $1000 piece and let us hack out who is better instead of putting out flow numbers from a real flow tunnel to set us all straight. Lets face it, most shops are not up to par on this particular issue like someone who got a degree and worked for a bigtime company in intercooling is. Other shops are better at other issues, but this one is a lock for CAS.
Ex, Kevin has flow numbers for heads on his site. Real numbers, real easy to see that the stock head is going to get whomped by the GN1 head or the champion. Yet we are going off of others word of mouth except for CAS. Not real technical wouldn't you say?
Not trying to rant, or put down anyones intercoolers or purchases. Just looking for others flow numbers.
REAL NUMBERS!!!!!
Did you not see the effeciency numbers on the chart I gave?
94% at 1500 cfm and 17 mph!! Those are real! Not, my car did this, or should do that. Thats not real due to many variables.
If the core flows a ton of cfm at 94% effeciency, I'm going with it is going to cool down your boost alot. 94% effecient on an air to air.
There are some basic intercooler tests. They are set up with inlet air at or atleast around 350 degrees. So, the smaller turbos will see a difference on a front mount in both spoolup due to more cfm at any given pressure loss and then in a lower outlet charge due to the effeciency at any given cfm. You win both ways on a better flowing and effecient intercooler. Your motor will see a difference with an intercooler below 500 hp. Maybe not like 3 tenths, but definitely not the same.
By the way, dequick has a degree in engineering. Does any of these other intercooler designers or end tank welders? DOUBT IT! His intercoolers are to good to be true, flow more, more effecient, and are cheaper.
I am not trying to attack anyone here, but it is real easy to just put out a $1000 piece and let us hack out who is better instead of putting out flow numbers from a real flow tunnel to set us all straight. Lets face it, most shops are not up to par on this particular issue like someone who got a degree and worked for a bigtime company in intercooling is. Other shops are better at other issues, but this one is a lock for CAS.
Ex, Kevin has flow numbers for heads on his site. Real numbers, real easy to see that the stock head is going to get whomped by the GN1 head or the champion. Yet we are going off of others word of mouth except for CAS. Not real technical wouldn't you say?
Not trying to rant, or put down anyones intercoolers or purchases. Just looking for others flow numbers.
Well just to throw a curve at everyone on the PTE and V2 IC. What about a KB Big Boy IC? It seems that everytime an IC thread pops up the only 2 that are spoken of are those 2. I just thought I'd throw that in because that's what I have. But haven't put it on yet.
Intercooler
New Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
It works better than a stocker. I never understood the "Big Boy" term as it is very little! You will pick up with it but not as much as the other FM's out there. Another old design.
You will pick up with it but not as much as the other FM's out there. Another old design.I wouldn't think that there'd be more than about 5 hp difference in the newer FM's than the older KB down to the low-mid 11's.. The "Big Boy" looks very similar to the CarTech.
No one will know for sure unit someone does a test with all of them stacked up against one another.
I doubt that we'll see that kind of a test, 'cause if you can pick up an old used KB for $400.00 and there is only 5-7 hp difference from a newer FM that's $900.00 + $.... hmmmmm.
No one will know for sure unit someone does a test with all of them stacked up against one another.
I doubt that we'll see that kind of a test, 'cause if you can pick up an old used KB for $400.00 and there is only 5-7 hp difference from a newer FM that's $900.00 + $.... hmmmmm.
Yeah that's what I thought about spending a little less for now at least and even maybe being a under dog.... . I'll just have to see how well it works here pretty soon I guess. Wasn't this IC based off another style? Was it a Cartech? I know people have talked about 2 versions of this IC as well? I just hope it's ready to have about 28psi thrown at it
. I'll just have to see how well it works here pretty soon I guess. Wasn't this IC based off another style? Was it a Cartech? I know people have talked about 2 versions of this IC as well? I just hope it's ready to have about 28psi thrown at it
G
GNSCOTT
Guest
OK. When talking flow you have to take the whole motor's flow into account. Flow doesn't mean anything if its more flow than the engine can handle. That is why a bigger IC is more effective on a higher HP car. That is why you see no HP gains going t a V1 over a V2 untill you hit low 10's, that is why the cooling ability of the core plays such an important role. Is asking someone if they have swapped a couple of ICs too much to ask??
Do you think Tony is the only person with a degree?? No one at Spearco has a degree?? I dn't think anyone is making cores in the shed out in the back yard. There are only a handfull of core makers,and i'm sure alot of them have engineering degrees.
No one is dobting that. I JUST WANT MAT #'s AT THE PLENUM THROUGH THE TRAPS!! That tells the whole story. Did anyone bash CAS?? I know i didn't.
I'l settle for my MAT #"s...that's why i asked. You yourself are proclaiming CAS's to be the best w/ out testing the others. I can't afford a wind tunnel and why bother when you can just get MAT readings, again, that is why i asked for the #'s. Compare the V1, Cotton's,and PTE race version.
I posted a speedpro log from a few years ago that showed MAT going from about 70 deg to about 100 deg during a 1/4 mile run. This after installing a new, improved core V1 and a 5" cold air pickup. My MAT sensor is in the IC up pipe. 28 psi boost, ambient was in the 65-70 deg neighborhood. Seems like that's about as good as we could ask for in an air/air unit.
TurboTR
TurboTR
G
GNSCOTT
Guest
When my car is ready i will be happy to do the testing,if someone wants to lend a V1 ad a PTE unit. I'm just curious as to the differences if any. If someone with say a 500hp car wants to do the street versions, that would also help. You have to compare #'s to other #'s, and it must be done on equal grounds, ie. same car, same day, same temp, same temp at the beginning of the run, etc, all recorded on a lap top. I heard that ESP or someone was planning on doing it, but never saw a follow up post.
Intercooler
New Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
They did! They being "The Source". I don't get it but they were at Cecil last year with about a million temp sensors hooked up and I watched them switch from a PTE, V2, V1, Cotton's FM, ESP, V4 and probably a couple others I can't remember on that same track day. The car was an 86 GN with I think a 206/206 cam, PTE-51 turbo, THDP and the normal crap. I did approach them and asked who came out on top and they said all were close (maybe they wanted me to subscribe). I don't know if it has made it in print yet but the car was running bottom 12's and about 4 guys were working between runs changing IC's. Anyone get "The Source" and have results?
Intercooler
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- May 24, 2001
That is the bad part! I don't think anyone has one in stock and the wait is about 3 weeks through CAS or its vendors. FWIW I have heard this same stuff from other vendors too so it isn't just CAS running into snags.
Lets move on the subject and compare cores so we can get to the best front mount. This will help stop the 2nd thread comment.
Pte and Cotton use a spearco core. Spearco cores are bar and plate. That core technology has not changed in atleast the last 15 years now. Bar and plate is so off the scale on this subject I can not hold back anymore. So, bar and plate is bought in sheet stocks and put together by hand. It is multiple rowed (horrible for flowing cfm and effeciency) and brazed together. It can leak, is heavy, and anyone can learn how to make it, just like they do in Mexico. You do not need to buy any tooling for it. But yes, they do have degrees at Spearco. My comment was more towards the ability of shops to weld tanks together compared to someone who actually knows every little detail of an intercooler he designed and got a degree in.
Now extruded tube and fin are the newest in core technology as of a year and a half ago. It needs tooling that is crazy expensive, around $6000 a core!! It is ONE HUGE ROW OF CORE!! No mulitple rows there. ONE HUGE PIECE! Not brazed sheets. So in return you gain cfm and better pressure loss. No leaks and way way more effecient. Only HKS use tube and fin, and even they did not pony up the cash for the extruded tube. So if anyone comes out with a HKS core, then we have some competition here. But still extruded tube is even more effecient than tube and fin. That supra intercooler CAS has spanked all the competition in supra land. Formerly ruled by HKS.
As far as Cottons new one, does not matter, it is a spearco. And you can not just copy a core like CAS. Way more to it than that.
Pte's race core is big, yet still a spearco. No chance of it being even close to the new core technology.
EX, spearco core 2-216 is bar and plate and 28x10x3.5. It flows 790 cfm@1.5 pressure loss. It is 74% effecient and can not come close to even a HKS tube and fin. CAS V2 is 1015 cfm@1.5 pressure loss and 90% effecient at that cfm. Which one do you want on your car? And guess which one is cheaper? Which one will spool up your turbo faster? Which ones going to need more fuel to burn the denser cooler charge and make more power?
The front mounts out there are all good. But this is over the BEST front mount. And I think my decision was not over price wouldn't you say?
Did I get a chance to vote for my pick on the best front mount? Oh ya.
And still no new flow numbers from anyone on the other intercoolers. Starting to see the picture. Your not going to see anything. Who wants to put out a number that will look silly in front of CAS's numbers? Then, who would buy it when you saw they got spanked over a better, cheaper intercooler? Not me.
Not trying to put anyones opinions down, but when you add things up, sometimes to good to be true does exsist in the performance world. (Where does the tornado stand?)
Pte and Cotton use a spearco core. Spearco cores are bar and plate. That core technology has not changed in atleast the last 15 years now. Bar and plate is so off the scale on this subject I can not hold back anymore. So, bar and plate is bought in sheet stocks and put together by hand. It is multiple rowed (horrible for flowing cfm and effeciency) and brazed together. It can leak, is heavy, and anyone can learn how to make it, just like they do in Mexico. You do not need to buy any tooling for it. But yes, they do have degrees at Spearco. My comment was more towards the ability of shops to weld tanks together compared to someone who actually knows every little detail of an intercooler he designed and got a degree in.
Now extruded tube and fin are the newest in core technology as of a year and a half ago. It needs tooling that is crazy expensive, around $6000 a core!!
It is ONE HUGE ROW OF CORE!! No mulitple rows there. ONE HUGE PIECE! Not brazed sheets. So in return you gain cfm and better pressure loss. No leaks and way way more effecient. Only HKS use tube and fin, and even they did not pony up the cash for the extruded tube. So if anyone comes out with a HKS core, then we have some competition here. But still extruded tube is even more effecient than tube and fin. That supra intercooler CAS has spanked all the competition in supra land. Formerly ruled by HKS. As far as Cottons new one, does not matter, it is a spearco. And you can not just copy a core like CAS. Way more to it than that.
Pte's race core is big, yet still a spearco. No chance of it being even close to the new core technology.
EX, spearco core 2-216 is bar and plate and 28x10x3.5. It flows 790 cfm@1.5 pressure loss. It is 74% effecient and can not come close to even a HKS tube and fin. CAS V2 is 1015 cfm@1.5 pressure loss and 90% effecient at that cfm.
Which one do you want on your car? And guess which one is cheaper? Which one will spool up your turbo faster? Which ones going to need more fuel to burn the denser cooler charge and make more power?The front mounts out there are all good. But this is over the BEST front mount. And I think my decision was not over price wouldn't you say?
Did I get a chance to vote for my pick on the best front mount? Oh ya.
And still no new flow numbers from anyone on the other intercoolers. Starting to see the picture. Your not going to see anything. Who wants to put out a number that will look silly in front of CAS's numbers? Then, who would buy it when you saw they got spanked over a better, cheaper intercooler? Not me.
Not trying to put anyones opinions down, but when you add things up, sometimes to good to be true does exsist in the performance world. (Where does the tornado stand?)
In baseball terms: It's nice to know potential (like Barry Bonds) but what does he deliver in numbers (HR's, Batting Ave)?
The potential for the CAS (cfm) is there,but what does it deliver in HORSEPOWER over others like Cotton's. PTE...?
Get a turbo that most people know about TE44, etc. and put intercooler against intercooler. What's meaningful for many is just good old horsepower!
The potential for the CAS (cfm) is there,but what does it deliver in HORSEPOWER over others like Cotton's. PTE...?
Get a turbo that most people know about TE44, etc. and put intercooler against intercooler. What's meaningful for many is just good old horsepower!
