Intercooler
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I think you missed my post. Look up ^, it has been done with a 51 (we do know that one and maybe more than we would like) and they were all about the same at that level.
Best Front Mount?????
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Steve Wood
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I don't believe one can get a meaningful test with regard to hp except for a given combination that actually approaches the limit of a given design. Using a 44 or a 51 is a joke because neither will approach the limits of any of the current ic models out there. Few believe it but the V4s work just about as well down into the tens as front mounts on the track. But, everyone wants to know how much faster they will go with a front mount because we all know front mounts are better. Right? A front mount is better when the capacity of the oem location unit is being pushed toward the limit. A PTE51 may never be able to flow enuf to determine that a front mount is better than a V4.
On the other hand, a PTE88 would find the V4 a bottleneck before it reached full flow and will probably test the limits of the V2 as well.
Red Armstrong, and others, have tried to test ICs and the results have not been released. I suspect Red figured out a few years ago that they all worked within statistical limits and that he has proved nothing. More recent tests using Mickey Mouse turbos were probably also meaningless and the guys doing the test did not want to offend advertisers by either admitting the truth (that there was no real differences) or naming a winner if there had been.
This board is not the only medium that does not like to piss off it's advertisers.
In the end, there are two criteria that determine performance....flow and charge cooling. A four inch piece of pipe will flow the best but will provide little cooling so we cannot look at one parameter alone.
I don't know anything about the core variation and after trying to read Spoolin's write up, I still don't know a lot....I think I understand that CAS is using HKS tube design rather than the old tech Spearco or the new tech extruded turbing? Yet his IC is better than the HKS Supra.....does it use the same core or not?
I do know that Tony D is a professional in this field and I think he is the only one that actually understands the technical side of IC manufacturering....on the other hand, for 99% of us that are using normal sized turbos, I suspect old tech and new tech are not that far apart because all the ICs offered are overkill for our needs. For a guy running a Stage II and an 80/88, there may be differences. For the rest of us, we get back to price and practicality....does it mount easily and will it run in traffic on a 100+ deg day with the ac going?
This is a case, in my opinion, where eyeball engineering is probably as good as those who actually know what they are talking about unless you are deep into the nines.
On the other hand, a PTE88 would find the V4 a bottleneck before it reached full flow and will probably test the limits of the V2 as well.
Red Armstrong, and others, have tried to test ICs and the results have not been released. I suspect Red figured out a few years ago that they all worked within statistical limits and that he has proved nothing. More recent tests using Mickey Mouse turbos were probably also meaningless and the guys doing the test did not want to offend advertisers by either admitting the truth (that there was no real differences) or naming a winner if there had been.
This board is not the only medium that does not like to piss off it's advertisers.
In the end, there are two criteria that determine performance....flow and charge cooling. A four inch piece of pipe will flow the best but will provide little cooling so we cannot look at one parameter alone.
I don't know anything about the core variation and after trying to read Spoolin's write up, I still don't know a lot....I think I understand that CAS is using HKS tube design rather than the old tech Spearco or the new tech extruded turbing? Yet his IC is better than the HKS Supra.....does it use the same core or not?
I do know that Tony D is a professional in this field and I think he is the only one that actually understands the technical side of IC manufacturering....on the other hand, for 99% of us that are using normal sized turbos, I suspect old tech and new tech are not that far apart because all the ICs offered are overkill for our needs. For a guy running a Stage II and an 80/88, there may be differences. For the rest of us, we get back to price and practicality....does it mount easily and will it run in traffic on a 100+ deg day with the ac going?
This is a case, in my opinion, where eyeball engineering is probably as good as those who actually know what they are talking about unless you are deep into the nines.
G
GNSCOTT
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Steve hit the nail on the head. Its a waste to test a V1 or Cottons with a low 12 second car. Those are low 10 and below intercoolers. You can scream new tech till your blue in the face. An intercooler's purpose is to cool the charge 1st. I know most IC's out there can flow more air than most motors out there can handle, hat is why flow #'s don't mean as much to me as cooling #'s. I don't think anyone is proclaiming that CAS's #'s aren't the best, but lets see the "real #'s " to back it up. If you don't test the V1, Cottons, PTE race on a stage car, or a car like Geno's 9 sec. stock block car, its a waste of time. Now hearng that ESP did it with a low 12 sec. car, i don't think you will even be able to determine the V2 to a reg. PTE unit. You have to be Maxxed or borderline to see which one shines, and my guess woud be that is why the #'s are so close. IMHO, the test is fawed before it started.
Steve Wood
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Being redundant with Scott, if you take a big inch engine and a big turbo and two different ICs and they both make 22# of boost, then you can assume the flow is enough to let the turbo build the boost you want it to. Then the real test is as Scott says, which unit provides the lowest temperature into the tb? (the 22# was an number out of the sky-nothing magic about it...use what ever boost you want to run at)
Obviously, there is some point where the turbo leaves the efficient range and charge temps will jump. Due to this and due to the variations in combo....I think he is right..whatever unit gives you the lowest inlet temp is the best one. BUT, if you are not nearing the limits of the IC, it is probably not very critical.
In my case, a 45 turbo on a V2 with ported iron heads and a 210 roller in a stock block, there is little magic between various ICs once stepped up from stock. In fact, if the V4 had been available and I had been wise enuf to buy it, I would have saved a lot of money on a three pass radiator, od water pump pulley, hd water pump, and dual Spals.....
In spite of his sometimes slowness, I like dealing with Tony because he provides a lot of good information and is patient in his education of me. I believe he really knows what he is doing and builds technically superior products...but, I don't believe I go faster with a V2 than I would with the PTE or others.
If I were running a set up like Scott's, I would want some solid numbers to make my decisions on.
Obviously, there is some point where the turbo leaves the efficient range and charge temps will jump. Due to this and due to the variations in combo....I think he is right..whatever unit gives you the lowest inlet temp is the best one. BUT, if you are not nearing the limits of the IC, it is probably not very critical.
In my case, a 45 turbo on a V2 with ported iron heads and a 210 roller in a stock block, there is little magic between various ICs once stepped up from stock. In fact, if the V4 had been available and I had been wise enuf to buy it, I would have saved a lot of money on a three pass radiator, od water pump pulley, hd water pump, and dual Spals.....
In spite of his sometimes slowness, I like dealing with Tony because he provides a lot of good information and is patient in his education of me. I believe he really knows what he is doing and builds technically superior products...but, I don't believe I go faster with a V2 than I would with the PTE or others.
If I were running a set up like Scott's, I would want some solid numbers to make my decisions on.
Intercooler
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I guess the numbers from a 76 and 88 turbo from Cal counts for nothing
CAS is the ONLY shop using extruded tube and fin. Hks uses just tube and fin, and spearco cores are bar and plate. That order is also how they appear in cfm@pressure loss and effeciency. Which means you will see more hp with that order on a bigger turbo.
Turbo TR and QuickT have done the mat tests, it should atleast back up the CAS numbers your seeing in the chart for the ic. A more effecient higher flowing intercooler will produce more hp. It might need more turbo like a te45, but you should see an et difference. Any turbo around te 62 and smaller really screams for the stock location ics.
Steve Wood, I agree with you on maybe a slight difference on weaker cars and various intercoolers. But then the CAS still wins on price. I am still not seeing the Pte piece in the picture.
Turbo TR and QuickT have done the mat tests, it should atleast back up the CAS numbers your seeing in the chart for the ic. A more effecient higher flowing intercooler will produce more hp. It might need more turbo like a te45, but you should see an et difference. Any turbo around te 62 and smaller really screams for the stock location ics.
Steve Wood, I agree with you on maybe a slight difference on weaker cars and various intercoolers. But then the CAS still wins on price. I am still not seeing the Pte piece in the picture.
G
GNSCOTT
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Cal himself admits he compared a V1 to a regular PTE unit. Try hooking up a V2 to an 88 and watch those temps rise. I had a V2 with my 70bb and maybe me set at sperkill i would have maxxed out the IC. I never had a chance to get above16psi (ran 11.2) before i deceided to sell it all and go stage. You thnk real hard at that point when your 200 miles from home, have to be at work no matter what @3:30 am the next morning,have no trailer, no laptop to tune the FAST system, and no AAA plus
Steve Wood
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Originally posted by Intercooler
I guess the numbers from a 76 and 88 turbo from Cal counts for nothing
They count when comparing apples to apples.....again we have a variation in combo if I read correctly.
I understood it to mean that a V1 was better than the PTE he compared it too. Whether that is relevant to the latest offerings, I have no clue.
AS I have said, I like Tony and I like his products. If I were in Scott's shoes with his combination, I would agree 100% with his position.
There are guys here that believe anything sold by Red Armstrong is the absolute best and the only way to do things. There are guys here that believe if it comes from PTE, it must be the best. Others say the stuff from Cotton is the latest and greatest.
I believe most of that is just sales hype. I seldom believe what I read in magazines because everything works in the magazines....at least it does if the company advertises there.
I prefer to rely on facts rather than ads. I would be in the 7s if the ads were true! Okay, nines...
You know the old saw. "money talks, BS walks" Brand loyalty is great, you can always put the sticker on the window. Finding what is really the best takes some control and testing.ESP Products
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We have heard the term "Old School" used before when speaking of our ESP FMIC. Just a minute to defend such remarks; and I do look forward to comments; any info that could assist in making a better product. As far as we know, via our testing and independent testing(The Source) as well as others, the following information is correct and accurate.
We are the only FMIC to...
...quote 60 HP gains via engine dyno testing.
...first to offer aluminum tubes.
...lightest in weight.
...coldest in operation.
...1/2 sec and 6 mph gains at the track
...highest cooling effic. rating
As mentioned earlier, our FM was copied, but we have tested and do not feel a larger unit will benefit a stock block Buick and one that is used mostly on the street. 3" tubes slow down velocity and the largest of turbos only has a 2-1/2" O.D. and at best a 2" I.D. For the past so many years we have always been considered one of the top FMIC. We have seen the one piece pipes that run from the Int to the t-body and they don't all fit that great. Every engine has a variation and a different modification. A 2 piece pipe (uses your inlet as 2nd) fits better. As far as "blocking the radiator" Come on, it's a frontmount, what did you think.
Thank you, John @ ESP
We are the only FMIC to...
...quote 60 HP gains via engine dyno testing.
...first to offer aluminum tubes.
...lightest in weight.
...coldest in operation.
...1/2 sec and 6 mph gains at the track
...highest cooling effic. rating
As mentioned earlier, our FM was copied, but we have tested and do not feel a larger unit will benefit a stock block Buick and one that is used mostly on the street. 3" tubes slow down velocity and the largest of turbos only has a 2-1/2" O.D. and at best a 2" I.D. For the past so many years we have always been considered one of the top FMIC. We have seen the one piece pipes that run from the Int to the t-body and they don't all fit that great. Every engine has a variation and a different modification. A 2 piece pipe (uses your inlet as 2nd) fits better. As far as "blocking the radiator" Come on, it's a frontmount, what did you think.
Thank you, John @ ESP
John if I remember right your cores are Tube and Fin by Hks?
If so, then your front mount is definitely more effecient than the shops using the spearco bar and plate cores. And can put up a good fight for the best front mount against CAS. Atleast your core technology has evolved into the next stage.
But remember, CAS has extruded tube and fin, it is the next evolution of your core technology, and CAS cores are larger.
As for highest cooling effeciency rating,
What did you use to get that statement?
Or what did the SOURCE use?
Cas has a flow chart from a flow tunnel that shows their core at 24x13x4.5 was 94% effecient at 17 mph at 1500 cfm. That core is similar to the V2 and smaller than the V1. The V1 is at 25x16x4.5.
Not trying to rub you the wrong way, but if your core is the tube in fin, then the other front mounts would not be worth the money comparatively to yours and the CAS piece.
And old school is spearco cores, not tube and fin or extruded tube and fin.
If so, then your front mount is definitely more effecient than the shops using the spearco bar and plate cores. And can put up a good fight for the best front mount against CAS. Atleast your core technology has evolved into the next stage.
But remember, CAS has extruded tube and fin, it is the next evolution of your core technology, and CAS cores are larger.
As for highest cooling effeciency rating,
What did you use to get that statement?
Or what did the SOURCE use?
Cas has a flow chart from a flow tunnel that shows their core at 24x13x4.5 was 94% effecient at 17 mph at 1500 cfm. That core is similar to the V2 and smaller than the V1. The V1 is at 25x16x4.5.
Not trying to rub you the wrong way, but if your core is the tube in fin, then the other front mounts would not be worth the money comparatively to yours and the CAS piece.
And old school is spearco cores, not tube and fin or extruded tube and fin.
Well I really don't think it makes much of a difference since PTE has several cars running in the 6's with their intercoolers (old school Spearco cores) and plenty of other fast turbo buicks are running the Spearco design and many of the fastest turbo cars that run in the Import class run Spearco intercoolers like Craig Paisley's Turbo Outlaw Supra that runs low 8's!!! Duttweiler ran high 6's with a Spearco intercooler also so do you honestly think it makes a difference if the top guys are running these old school Spearco intercoolers??? I don't and maybe that's why Spearco hasn't changed their design cause it would be a waste of time and money! Not saying that the CAS intercoolers and HKS aren't good intercoolers, but to say one is better is kind of foolish IMO.
The V4R is a bit bigger over the V4 (the V4 is 21 row and the V4R is 27 row). According to Tony's website www.chargedair.com the V4R can support 750hp which would mean it's good up until you start running in the 9's. For the money you'd pay for a V4R you'd be better off just upgrading your cooling system with one of Tony's 3 pass aluminum radiators and getting some dual spal fans for the V2 FM. Just my .02
>do you honestly think it makes a difference if the top guys are running these old school Spearco intercoolers???
The thread is about the best. I can name atleast 5 reasons why spearco cores can not compete against extruded tube and fin or even tube and fin.
What matters to buick guys is that the best is also the cheapest.
CAS is not a house hold name like spearco, and the technology is not really known yet. So, people go with the trusted name, and rightfully so. Spearco has tons of intercooler cores, but that does not mean they are the best. Just because Duttweiler runs 6's with a monster spearco core does not mean if CAS made him a piece the same size he would not see a difference in mat #'s.
HE WOULD!!! There are guys in the buick world showing CAS
mat #'s lower than spearco cores already.
I have examples of spearco sized cores in flow, pressure drop and effeciency. When compared to CAS's extruded tube, they come up WAY short in every performance catagory.
Just because Michael Jordan does gatorade commercials, does not mean that it taste good or is the best drink out there. It just means it is the one that people know about and think is the best because the best drinks it.
I bet someday spearco will pony up the dough for the new technology, but not anytime soon. Not when you have people in other countries welding the sheet stocks together for them.
The thread is about the best. I can name atleast 5 reasons why spearco cores can not compete against extruded tube and fin or even tube and fin.
What matters to buick guys is that the best is also the cheapest.
CAS is not a house hold name like spearco, and the technology is not really known yet. So, people go with the trusted name, and rightfully so. Spearco has tons of intercooler cores, but that does not mean they are the best. Just because Duttweiler runs 6's with a monster spearco core does not mean if CAS made him a piece the same size he would not see a difference in mat #'s.
HE WOULD!!! There are guys in the buick world showing CAS
mat #'s lower than spearco cores already.
I have examples of spearco sized cores in flow, pressure drop and effeciency. When compared to CAS's extruded tube, they come up WAY short in every performance catagory.
Just because Michael Jordan does gatorade commercials, does not mean that it taste good or is the best drink out there. It just means it is the one that people know about and think is the best because the best drinks it.
I bet someday spearco will pony up the dough for the new technology, but not anytime soon. Not when you have people in other countries welding the sheet stocks together for them.
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How long has CAS been using extruded tube cores?
The Radius Kid
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Exactly.Who the heck cares what I/C you've bought,as long as:
A:It works well for what you are doing with it.
B:It doesn't cause you any headaches.
C:The price is reasonable.
Who makes it and what technology they used shouldn't matter.
BTW,I bought a CAS V-1.
If the V4-R is good for 750 ponys, why wouldn't more people run them in a low ten sec car just for the simple fact of loosing the weight of the front end of the car with a frontmount?? Anyone know how long it would take tony to make a V4R??
Thank's inadvance,
Matt
Thank's inadvance,
Matt
