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the buick crank sensor has an edge at 70 degrees btdc and at 10 degrees btdc.

the 70 degree edge is used for timing (falling edge I think), the 10 degree edge is used during cranking and bypass mode (code 42)

I would think the FAST would use the same strategy.

Note, that even if you put the critical edge very close to your firing angle, the RPM (and therefore the time delay to create your spark advance) is calculated from the previous 2 edges (teeth).

Bob
 
the buick crank sensor has an edge at 70 degrees btdc and at 10 degrees btdc.

the 70 degree edge is used for timing (falling edge I think), the 10 degree edge is used during cranking and bypass mode (code 42)

I would think the FAST would use the same strategy.

Note, that even if you put the critical edge very close to your firing angle, the RPM (and therefore the time delay to create your spark advance) is calculated from the previous 2 edges (teeth).

Bob
So that makes the chance of variation even greater.
 
Thanks T'Bob. Didn't know the stocker used the 70 deg edge, but would make sense to do so. Wonder if the FAST uses the 70 deg edge as well?

Might be able to tell by seeing which edge also fires the injectors.

TurboTR
 
they are probably triggered from the falling edge, as this is usually the more precise edge.

There are a couple sources of timing jitter. The acceleration of the engine causes late timing, and (depending on hardware and software details) the ECM may be late in calculating the correct timing delay. The stock ECM has a dedicated chip that does a lot of this in hardware. The aftermarket ECM's do a lot with software calculations and may not have enough cpu power to do the timing calculations every reference pulse.

So software lag would contribute to spark "scatter", as it would not be consistent.

Bob
 
Understood. So the cam sensor signal is not 'expected' a certain time period after the last crank ref signal? But it does setup timing of the injector firing in relation to crankshaft angle. Correct?

I wish someone had the exact parameters of the OEM ignition control programming to share. That would be very interesting.

The cam signal only sets up which cylinder is to be fired and which cylinder is injected.

The plug firing time and injector firing time are both relative to the crank signal.

To add to what TBob was saying about the ECM errors. In the stock GM '7148 ECM is a 16 bit counter. This counter is clocked at 64KHz (65536 counts a second). It is used by the ECM hardware to fire the coil at the proper time relative to the incoming crank reference pulse.

After the ECM converts the desired spark advance from degrees to a time base, this value is set in the counter. At 64KHz the counter has a resolution of 15.26 micro-seconds (usec).

As is typical with digital counters and asynchronous signals, the firing time signal to the C3I system is +- 1 counter bit, or 15.26 usec.

Taking that into account, lets use 7,000 RPM. That is one revolution (360*) every 8.57 milli-seconds. So a 15.26 usec error in the timing signal is 0.64 degrees at the crankshaft (I think I did the math right).

0.01526 / (8.57 / 360) = 0.64 degrees

So we can see +- 0.64 degrees of timing variance from the desired. Or 1.28 degrees of timing change (0.64 * 2). This is inherent in the ECM hardware.

At a nominal 5,800 RPM, the timing error is less (+- 0.53 deg). A little over 1 degree of total variance.

As you can see it doesn't take much to vary the timing. Which brings back to mind how accurately the hall affect sensor and vane system generates the crank signal.

RemoveBeforeFlight
 
Thanks again RmvBfrFlght.

Seems that that would be a static accuracy spec during steady state rpm conditions. It should be interesting to see how things perform while accelerating the crankshaft signal at a racing type slew rate.

Wonder what sort of slew tracking and compensation they provide to account for this?

TurboTR
 
Thanks again RmvBfrFlght.

Seems that that would be a static accuracy spec during steady state rpm conditions. It should be interesting to see how things perform while accelerating the crankshaft signal at a racing type slew rate.

Wonder what sort of slew tracking and compensation they provide to account for this?

TurboTR

The timing variance due to the +-1 bit of counter error can occur at any time. During acceleration or steady state or even decel.

In the stock ECM there is only one area that is slew compensated. That is that an increase in spark advance is limited. What can happen if the desired SA goes from say 20* BTDC to 36*BTDC (such as on a lift from accel to cruise), is that the dwell can be shortened.

So the ECM software limits how quickly the SA can be advanced (or increased in advance). This is to prevent the dwell time from being cut short.

Now, not directly connected to the spark firing time, but there is also an increase in coil dwell with an increase in load. The ECM checks the engine load in each spark loop and will dwell the coil(s) longer whenever the load increases.

RemoveBeforeFlight
 
The timing variance due to the +-1 bit of counter error can occur at any time. During acceleration or steady state or even decel.

In the stock ECM there is only one area that is slew compensated. That is that an increase in spark advance is limited. What can happen if the desired SA goes from say 20* BTDC to 36*BTDC (such as on a lift from accel to cruise), is that the dwell can be shortened.

So the ECM software limits how quickly the SA can be advanced (or increased in advance). This is to prevent the dwell time from being cut short.

Now, not directly connected to the spark firing time, but there is also an increase in coil dwell with an increase in load. The ECM checks the engine load in each spark loop and will dwell the coil(s) longer whenever the load increases.

RemoveBeforeFlight
From what I gather though, the dwell time is insufficient with the stock system. I'm sure it's adequate for what it was designed to do, but can't be pushed too hard. If things were different and the dwell time was sufficient, are the stock coil packs capable of doing the job?
 
Don it just runs out of dwell time at higher rpm because of the single EST line that serves all 3 coils. Past what the stock engine is capable of. That single EST line also has to control the dwell period. That's why I was harping on the fact that the F*rd EDIS setup has 3 individual EST lines on the v6 hdw, as well as the EM setup in that other ignition thread. That's the solution to that problem at least.

I think the F*rd setup would work on the Buick with an aftermarket ECU (one that speaks SPOUT, err I mean SAW), if you just put the matching CRS wheel setup on it (36-1). It's cheap too, like $125 for the whole setup. It might also survive a burst of 2 step too. The biggie to me would be, can it tolerate a 2 step burst without losing sync. If it can, seems to be well worth it to try it as another option to an upgraded ignition.

TurboTR

Edit- if this info is correct, there is hope for tolerating a 2 step, as long as a spark occurs at least every 5 cylinder events:

"The SAW can be communicated at any time other than during a spark event. Also, the SAW will be stored in the EDIS module so the advance does not need to be updated every cylinder event. The EDIS module MUST receive a SAW signal from the ECU within 5 cylinder events or the EDIS will default to LOS mode and 10° BTDC spark advance".
 
Ted why ask questions? You cant answer any when you are asked. Its obvious what your motive is here. The ignition system used was listed. Once again help with your reading comprehension. COP or 24X was never installed. There were 2 systems on the car during the course of the summer. First was the XFI and then the BS3 Chuck installed himself. I installed the Thruster and then the EM. The EM being the only DIS on the car. We spent about 7 days on the car with the last two systems. I have told many about it. I had conversation with Cal while all this was going on telling him about it. He was aware of it as were many others.
Why share info? There is always a guy like you to argue with the findings if you dont like what you hear. The info is out there. Let people draw their own conclusions. You like anyone else can choose to think its FOS. I have my opinion as to what was going on. Right or wrong its my opinion there cheif. Why dont you get off my A$$ and find someone else to follow around the boards.

OK so now you admit the customer installed the XFI and BS3, I thought it was "we". Was he running a distributor like you mention above, or did he run XIM-XFI (COP) and BS3 COP to find the spark scatter? If he was running a distributor you know damn well something was wrong (hardware) and if he was running COP firmware BS3 (58X) then I'm real interested in this now. FYI, I shot Mike Bamfords LSX (58x) to 7000 RPM and timing was rock steady. My opinions out there too chief. ;)

In conclusion, I'm not saying Motec and Electromotive aren't good systems, I do say there is NO WAY there is 10 degree spark scatter unless there is a problem with the pickup/wheel and possible interference or other mechanical issues. If there was a inherent issue with BS3 and XFI you would think some major shop would have done a real test using laboratory equipment and have conclusive data without question, but yet we have nothing of the sort. If a magazine wouldn't print the article I'm sure somewhere on the net would.
 
OK so now you admit the customer installed the XFI and BS3, I thought it was "we". Was he running a distributor like you mention above, or did he run XIM-XFI (COP) and BS3 COP to find the spark scatter? If he was running a distributor you know damn well something was wrong (hardware) and if he was running COP firmware BS3 (58X) then I'm real interested in this now. FYI, I shot Mike Bamfords LSX (58x) to 7000 RPM and timing was rock steady. My opinions out there too chief. ;)

In conclusion, I'm not saying Motec and Electromotive aren't good systems, I do say there is NO WAY there is 10 degree spark scatter unless there is a problem with the pickup/wheel and possible interference or other mechanical issues. If there was a inherent issue with BS3 and XFI you would think some major shop would have done a real test using laboratory equipment and have conclusive data without question, but yet we have nothing of the sort. If a magazine wouldn't print the article I'm sure somewhere on the net would.

I don't think Lonnie was saying BS3 XFI or Gen7 are bad systems either but the 3 pulse crank trigger system is and has inherent flaws when running EFI. I think everyone will agree with a 3 pulse crank trigger at high RPM (>7000) spark scatter CAN become an issue. To what degree we can all debate for sometime:D

I run a 3 pulse crank trigger with a Gen 7 which isn't any different or better than the BS3 or XFI. If spark scatter exists I don't think it is much of a concern with my current ignition setup. My initial interest in this topic was if I go to COP which I would like to do. IMO the "best" ignition setup you can run would be a COP setup with a high resolution 58x crank trigger that doesn't rely on cam sync every 720* to reset #1. Right now electromotive, Motec and possibly the Accel ICM box are the only three I'm aware of that do this. If spark scatter can be an issue with a mechanical device like a distributor I don't even want to consider what it can do when it is 100% under the control of an ECU without mechanical limitations:eek:

I don't think anyone would disagree that Mike's timing is rock steady at 7000rpm with a 58x wheel. I think if you tried running the same Ls1 ignition system with a 3 pulse crank trigger it would be a mess like it would be with any other system with the same crank trigger system. There is a reason the GM went to the 58x wheels on the LS2.

My only question with BS3 is what I was told by BS3 vs what you posted were two different things and I sent that to you in an e-mail. Even with a 58x wheel the BS3 resets #1 every 720* with the cam sync instead of at 360* with the two missing teeth on the 58x wheel. Might be a mute point but why have two missing teeth then?
 
I tried to keep up with all these acronyms but..................

The main question is how can the Electromotive system (EM) be helpful with TR world utilizing a XFI/BS3 ECUs?

What is needed to implement the EM system to an engine using XFI/BS3?

Layman's wording please.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
 
I tried to keep up with all these acronyms but..................

The main question is how can the Electromotive system (EM) be helpful with TR world utilizing a XFI/BS3 ECUs?

What is needed to implement the EM system to an engine using XFI/BS3?

Layman's wording please.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

EM is a stand alone system with its own fuel control. It utilizes WBO2 closed loop correction in a speed density setup. No real reason to piggyback an XFI or BS3 with the system. It also has some neat datalogging features and is compatible with PCS dash that the XFI uses. They may have a separate ignition setup but not sure. Personally if I was going to keep the XFI for fuel control datalogging etc I would use the Accel ICM box instead. I am probably going this route with my Gen 7 this winter when I go COP.

You gonna be at Cecil this weekend?
 
EM is a stand alone system with its own fuel control. It utilizes WBO2 closed loop correction in a speed density setup. No real reason to piggyback an XFI or BS3 with the system. It also has some neat datalogging features and is compatible with PCS dash that the XFI uses. They may have a separate ignition setup but not sure. Personally if I was going to keep the XFI for fuel control datalogging etc I would use the Accel ICM box instead. I am probably going this route with my Gen 7 this winter when I go COP.

You gonna be at Cecil this weekend?
Electromotive produces the TEC (Total Engine Control) units that include ignition and fueling control, and they produce an ignition only contol box that they call XDI.

The Electromotive TEC units aren't really designed to be piggy backed with another system. But then, some do like to pile on the electronics.
 
I don't think Lonnie was saying BS3 XFI or Gen7 are bad systems either but the 3 pulse crank trigger system is and has inherent flaws when running EFI. I think everyone will agree with a 3 pulse crank trigger at high RPM (>7000) spark scatter CAN become an issue. To what degree we can all debate for sometime:D

I run a 3 pulse crank trigger with a Gen 7 which isn't any different or better than the BS3 or XFI. If spark scatter exists I don't think it is much of a concern with my current ignition setup. My initial interest in this topic was if I go to COP which I would like to do. IMO the "best" ignition setup you can run would be a COP setup with a high resolution 58x crank trigger that doesn't rely on cam sync every 720* to reset #1. Right now electromotive, Motec and possibly the Accel ICM box are the only three I'm aware of that do this. If spark scatter can be an issue with a mechanical device like a distributor I don't even want to consider what it can do when it is 100% under the control of an ECU without mechanical limitations:eek:

I don't think anyone would disagree that Mike's timing is rock steady at 7000rpm with a 58x wheel. I think if you tried running the same Ls1 ignition system with a 3 pulse crank trigger it would be a mess like it would be with any other system with the same crank trigger system. There is a reason the GM went to the 58x wheels on the LS2.

My only question with BS3 is what I was told by BS3 vs what you posted were two different things and I sent that to you in an e-mail. Even with a 58x wheel the BS3 resets #1 every 720* with the cam sync instead of at 360* with the two missing teeth on the 58x wheel. Might be a mute point but why have two missing teeth then?

I'll leave it up to you to post the e-mails between you and Leo. It says nothing about Cam sync having anything to do with actual ignition timing what so ever. It is irrelevant if it looks for a cam sync to determine where #1 cylinder is every 720* or 360* if we are talking about spark scatter and cam sync does nothing to change it right? To answer Lonnies question what happens if it misses a crank pulse (BS3) it will STOP FIRING until it sees a cam sync to tell it where #1 is at again then it takes the next crank tooth to determine TDC then start firing again(correctly). At 9500RPM how long does 2 RPM last? If his tests he observed were done with 2 systems running a 3x distributor setup and he decided to throw on COP with a 58x wheel running both the Accel box and Electromotive then he should do another test running a 58x BS3 COP or a XIM-XFI (COP) to compare apples to apples is all I am really saying here.

If you want to talk about it with John give him a call he would like to clear up any misinformation you may have been given.
 
I'll leave it up to you to post the e-mails between you and Leo. It says nothing about Cam sync having anything to do with actual ignition timing what so ever.

Yes I realize this, but this wasn't the question I posed. Inaccurate crank timing can and DOES affect ignition timing and the amount of time it takes to recover/resync is twice as long at 720* vs 360*. So while cam sync doesn't directly have anything to do with ignition timing it can prolong how long a motor is out of time if for some reason the crank trigger hiccups and miscounts a tooth.

It is irrelevant if it looks for a cam sync to determine where #1 cylinder is every 720* or 360*

360* takes half the time as 720* @ 9500rpm

if we are talking about spark scatter and cam sync does nothing to change it right? To answer Lonnies question what happens if it misses a crank pulse (BS3) it will STOP FIRING until it sees a cam sync to tell it where #1 is at again then it takes the next crank tooth to determine TDC then start firing again(correctly). At 9500RPM how long does 2 RPM last?

How would the ECM know to quit firing? If the system misses a tooth isn't it possible that timing can stray a few degrees until it resync's the #1 cylinder at 360* or 720*? This is why EM is saying a 60-2 wheel is important. If the system is a tooth counter, like BS3 claims, and misses one tooth how will the ECM know where it is in order to quit firing or correct the timing? With the 60-2 wheel at most it will be 360* of crank rotation before it resyncs with the BS3 it will be 720*. Also, with the BS3 if they can run the 58x wheel why even use the cam sync at all when you can use the crank trigger directly?

If his tests he observed were done with 2 systems running a 3x distributor setup and he decided to throw on COP with a 58x wheel running both the Accel box and Electromotive then he should do another test running a 58x BS3 COP or a XIM-XFI (COP) to compare apples to apples is all I am really saying here.

Again, I think Lonnie's point was spark scatter happens regardless of the system. With a 3 pulse crank trigger it can be pretty bad at higher RPM. I don't think he was bashing BS3 directly.

If you want to talk about it with John give him a call he would like to clear up any misinformation you may have been given.

I don't think he gave me any mis-information Its all a matter of interpreting what some manufactures think is significant vs what others don't. EM feels they have a superior product and so does BS3. I hope this discussion can stay on track so that us end users can make a better buying decision.
 
Ok did some more analysis, Aad am quite comfy now with the fundamental ability of a 1 pulse per cyclinder scheme to place a spark pulse quite accurately in any reasonable cranksahft slew rate scenario while racing. It seems no slew rate compensation is even required.

Again, I think the reason driving higher resolution CRS schemes (36-1, etc) was to detect misfire via a crank position dynamics based approach, not to correct a glaring spark inaccuracy inherent in a 1 pulse per cylinder CRS scheme.

Here's a depiction of the CRS and EST on the stock Buick signaling:

Sparkaccuracy.jpg



The question is- when the crankshaft is accelerating, as in during a pass down the race track, how much of an affect does that have on the ability of a 1 pulse per cyclinder scheme to place the spark accurately?

We need a representative crankshaft acceleration rate. I chose an rpm plot from a 2000+ hp car on a 7.0 pass. The 1st gear acceleration rate should serve as a good example IMO. I estimate a peak acceleration rate "α" (alpha) of about 1667 rpm/s. Or 27.78 rev/s^2.

Here's the plot used:

Artscrankshaftacceleration.jpg



So the ECU calculates the current angular speed "ω" (omega) from the crankshaft CRS_Period between the two 70 deg BTDC edges shown in the diagram above. Let's assume we're at 6000 rpm here, so we get a period of 10 ms and an ω = 100 rev/s.

The current 70 deg BTDC edge is the reference position pulse; when this comes in the ECU looks up the desired spark angle. Let's assume we want to spark at 30 deg BTDC. So we are currently at 70 BTDC and we want to spark 40 deg later at 30 BTDC. The ECU calculates the timer value it needs to load to make this happen.

In the case we're at 100 rev/s currently, so 1 deg is 10 ms/360 deg = 27.78 us/deg. To wait 40 deg then we need a counter value = 40 * 27.78 us = 1.111 ms.

If our cranksaft was rotating steady state at 100 rev/s with no acceleration, we would make a spark 40.0 deg later then at 30.0 deg BTDC, ignoring any small counter bit error for now (< 1/2 deg).

The question of the hour becomes- what is the actual spark angle that we arrive at in 1.111 ms elapsed time, knowing that the crankshaft is also accerating at a constant rate of 27.8 rev/s? How far off will we be?

The kinematic equation for position angle θ (theta) resulting from rotating speed + rotating acceleration is:

θ_actual = (ω * t) + (1/2 * α * t^2)

We have:
ω = 100 rev/s
α = 27.8 rev/s^2
t = 1.111 ms

We get:
θ_actual = 40.0 deg + 0.006 deg = 40.006 deg.

Sounds like we're expecting a horror show here, but we're only 0.006 deg late because of the crankshaft angular acceleration. Even in 1st gear with 2000+ hp. No wonder the stock ECU has no slew rate compensation- it doesnt need it.

Don't think there's any need to worry about the 1 pulse per cylinder scheme being inadequate vs a higher resolution wheel- it seems it's fundamentally more than adequate.

We'll try to also do some real bench testing soon with a classic FAST box with the 1 pulse per cylinder scheme.

TurboTR
 
Todd,
In making your calculations did you take into account the scientific error rate of the device making the calculations and the sensor doing the counting? It would seem to me that this could be an issue since hall effect and inductive pickup sensors have their own inherent set problems. Most notably inductive pick up sensors are subject to noise interference. Do you think this could be a factor in an ECM's ability to calculate timing accurately?

I'm looking forward to the result of your test and your discussion has certainly made me understand a few things better.
 
Very well done. That is a very detailed explanation of how I somewhat envisioned it happening.

What I would find interesting though would be the complete OEM formula for how the final timing event command is calculated. What other factors are thrown into that simple calculation to arrive at a final number? What other sensor inputs are involved? If a sensor signal is unsteady, how would that be able to affect the outcome of the formula?

As Chris layed out, how much error can be expected from the stock crank sensor that's responsible for sending that very important signal to the ecm? Does the internal software somehow account for some of this error?
 
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