Best pro touring setup?

[scot w.]

As soon as I read the title I just knew it was a loaded question but since I was brought up, here are my beliefs before and after I sold DSE suspension products but one thing I would like to know, What or Who determines what Pro-touring suspension is the BEST?

Anyone can go the less expensive route by getting junk yard parts off other OEM cars and fitting them onto our cars to gain a minor improvement over the crummy stock Buick suspension & brakes but in the end you still have OEM parts from another car and that's fine I have nothing against that, in fact I admire it if it works! if you just use the car as a driver and never intend to take it onto a Auto-x or road course and if you do you will shortly find out those parts don't cut it!! But when the word "Pro-touring" is used one immediately assumes the person is looking for a much better suspension than any OEM or cheap aftermarket parts can deliver so now that moves things up into another category whether the car will be used to it's potential or not..Now is where a person starts looking at parts, what to buy? Some are cheap, some say there stuff is the Best, some parts are Astronomically priced, what does the customer do now? how does one choose what is best for him? Very hard for us to do via internet unless the person explains in detail what the vehicle will be used for and what the person has to spend, then and only then can anyone truly determine what the person needs.

One thing for Any customer to think of is this..There are MANY suspension products in the aftermarket today. Some parts are engineered & Tested on and off the track, Some are made to fit, and some are just made to sell!! With a reputable company like DSE, Ridetech, Speedtech ETC You are paying for a reputable companies expertise and the comfort in knowing that they have discarded all the versions of their product that didn't work. Your also paying for all the testing they do on and off the Auto-X & Road course tracks all over the united states to give you a product that is Proven, That flat out Works, and that is safe to take onto any course or track with confidence and even if you never intend to do that you know that if it holds up to that kind of rigorous testing that it will deferentially hold up on the street!

(Top name brand, low cost, Chinese...in general you get what you pay for. In general, the name brands are solidly built. The low cost arms lack some of the detail refinements...and the imported no-name arms appear to suffer from both quality and design shortcomings but look pretty powdercoated black.
I probably would not care so much except that it might be my wife and kids in the oncoming lane when one of those shortcomings shows itself.

With all of the SFI/DOT/FVMSS safety regulations that abound, I'm somewhat surprised that suspension components have avoided the necessity of being certified in some form. THEN watch the prices climb.

As a test of a companies dedication to product design and manufacture...ask them for a copy of their product liability insurance.) by Bret Voelkel


Before choosing DSE for my suspension I was following the route of "Less expensive" and wanted to prove what could be done with less but looked at it in another way shortly after like coming to a gun fight with a Swiss army knife... I wanted to Auto-x and eventually run a road-course so after hearing horror stories from friends that actually went down this path of f-body brakes failing in the 3rd turn of VIR and the guy sliding into the grass at 120mph I decided right there that those kind of upgrades were not for me and what I was going to do with my car. Safety becomes a large concern for me when you start to push your car so I feel that buying a quality "Engineered" product that has been rigorously tested on many Auto-X and Road courses would yield the results I needed and provide the safety for what I intend to use my car for..

If anyone Wants to buy a complete engineered suspension and they can afford it, They should!
If anyone Wants to have a shop build their car and they can afford it, They should!
If anyone Wants to go with cheaper aftermarket parts or Junk yard parts, They should! Because after all, It's their Car!

I don't preach what product or suspension is the Best and I never discredit another company or vendor products as I am sure they all work, for me it's simple ... "The Proof is on the pavement"...

So to the original poster, In my eye's there Isn't a "Best" Pro-touring suspension but more like What works best for you! If your Wanting a complete full blown suspension that will be able to compete with the ranks of those Auto-x & Roadcourse guy's in the Top Ten then do your homework/research the companies that are on top at all the pro-touring events and give them a call, They will be more than happy to help you out and if you are ever around an event where I am at I will be more than happy to take you for a ride along on an Auto-X in our white Buick....


Scot W.

 

[scot w.]

This is the same thing Scott was saying back when he wasnt selling DSE parts. Almost the exact same thing actually. Now, I'm sure Scott will tell you to not mess around and just buy good parts.

What I'm trying to say here is that we all know you can make your car handle much better by doing the simple things. You will certainly notice a difference. I am certainly a believer in not spending a ton of money on unnessary or just "name brand" parts for the simple reason as to put it on your list to tell people at a car show. I think Scott will agree though, you buy these higher quality parts to make the car handle easier. We can all try to say what we use is the best, blah blah blah, but the real answer comes in engineering.

I prefer and stand by the AFX spindles becuase I understand the engineering behind them and see nothing that can come to a comparison. For me, the money is well worth the overall extreme improvement. Another thing to look at here is that these also come with double adjustable upper control arms. ANOTHER HUGE PLUS!

If you actually compare apples to apples, the AFX package is relatively inexpensive.

No matter who's system you use, as long as the engineering is there and improves our issues in the front end, it only pays to spend the money and get good parts.

That's a nice post Jeremy, well said!

 

[killer69]

Both Well put and well thought out. thumbs up. not much to add........

 

[jdpolzin]

As soon as I read the title I just knew it was a loaded question but since I was brought up, here are my beliefs before and after I sold DSE suspension products but one thing I would like to know, What or Who determines what Pro-touring suspension is the BEST?

Anyone can go the less expensive route by getting junk yard parts off other OEM cars and fitting them onto our cars to gain a minor improvement over the crummy stock Buick suspension & brakes but in the end you still have OEM parts from another car and that's fine I have nothing against that, in fact I admire it if it works! if you just use the car as a driver and never intend to take it onto a Auto-x or road course and if you do you will shortly find out those parts don't cut it!! But when the word "Pro-touring" is used one immediately assumes the person is looking for a much better suspension than any OEM or cheap aftermarket parts can deliver so now that moves things up into another category whether the car will be used to it's potential or not..Now is where a person starts looking at parts, what to buy? Some are cheap, some say there stuff is the Best, some parts are Astronomically priced, what does the customer do now? how does one choose what is best for him? Very hard for us to do via internet unless the person explains in detail what the vehicle will be used for and what the person has to spend, then and only then can anyone truly determine what the person needs.

One thing for Any customer to think of is this..There are MANY suspension products in the aftermarket today. Some parts are engineered & Tested on and off the track, Some are made to fit, and some are just made to sell!! With a reputable company like DSE, Ridetech, Speedtech ETC You are paying for a reputable companies expertise and the comfort in knowing that they have discarded all the versions of their product that didn't work. Your also paying for all the testing they do on and off the Auto-X & Road course tracks all over the united states to give you a product that is Proven, That flat out Works, and that is safe to take onto any course or track with confidence and even if you never intend to do that you know that if it holds up to that kind of rigorous testing that it will deferentially hold up on the street!

(Top name brand, low cost, Chinese...in general you get what you pay for. In general, the name brands are solidly built. The low cost arms lack some of the detail refinements...and the imported no-name arms appear to suffer from both quality and design shortcomings but look pretty powdercoated black.
I probably would not care so much except that it might be my wife and kids in the oncoming lane when one of those shortcomings shows itself.

With all of the SFI/DOT/FVMSS safety regulations that abound, I'm somewhat surprised that suspension components have avoided the necessity of being certified in some form. THEN watch the prices climb.

As a test of a companies dedication to product design and manufacture...ask them for a copy of their product liability insurance.) by Bret Voelkel


Before choosing DSE for my suspension I was following the route of "Less expensive" and wanted to prove what could be done with less but looked at in another way shortly after like coming to a gun fight with a Swiss army knife... I wanted to Auto-x and eventually run a roadcourse so after hearing horror stories from friends that actually went down this path of f-body brakes failing in the 3rd turn of VIR and the guy sliding into the grass at 120mph I decided right there that those kind of upgrades were not for me and what I was going to do with my car. Safety becomes a large concern for me when you start to push your car so I feel that buying a quality "Engineered" product that has been rigorously tested on many Auto-X and Road courses would yield the results I needed and provide the safety for what I intend to use my car for..

If anyone Wants to buy a complete engineered suspension and they can afford it, They should!
If anyone Wants to have a shop build their car and they can afford it, They should!
If anyone Wants to go with cheaper aftermarket parts or Junk yard parts, They should! Because after all, It's their Car!

I don't preach what product or suspension is the Best and I never discredit another company or vendor products as I am sure they all work, for me it's simple ... "The Proof is on the pavement"...

So to the original poster, In my eye's there Isn't a "Best" Pro-touring suspension but more like What works best for you! If your Wanting a complete full blown suspension that will be able to compete with the ranks of those Auto-x & Roadcourse guy's in the Top Ten then do your homework/research the companies that are on top at all the pro-touring events and give them a call, They will be more than happy to help you out and if you are ever around an event where I am at I will be more than happy to take you for a ride along on an Auto-X in our white Buick....


Scot W.

And a good post to you too!

Pro-Touring to me basically means that you decided to make an old car handle like a new one or better. There's really not a new Mustang, Camaro, or Challenger that I would consider to be Pro Toured! They are basically Pro Touring cars already right out of the factory. Now when a guy like ourselves spends the time thinking, designing, building, thinking a little more, taking parts off that we just installed becuase we arent happy with them, change to other parts, etc...... for the common goal to make the car handle and stop, that to me is Pro Touring.

Now the Pro Touring style commonly involves the larger wheels and lowered suspension because they help the car handle but even that isnt a neccesary thing. I've seen a lot of Pro Toured cars with 15" wheels. That was years ago but thhere are still some cruising around.

 

[charlief1]

I've been watching this thread since it started 9 months ago. As someone that ran SCCA GT1 back in the 80's as well as FF1600 I can tell you that the after market parts have gotten much better in the last 20 years. Both the stock parts and the after market parts can be used to make a car work better on the road and the track. I've seen this on the dirt track cars as well. The development of after market parts for all types of cars has gone through the roof in the last few years. This is due to most people that want their cars to handle better and be more competitive with the newer cars.

I also remember the "pro street" cars that came out in the 80's. Talk about a fast car that couldn't go around a corner. Now we have new cars that can pull 1 G or better straight off the show room floor. Anyone that has worked on cars for a living has noticed the changes in the suspension designs and how much better they work. The engineering has gotten better as well as the cars and updating a car to more modern standards is a natural desire. The catch here is whether you have the knowledge to use stock parts or have to rely on knowledge of others to tell you how to do it. If you have the knowledge you can take stock parts from other cars and adapt them to yours but most just don't have the knowledge or desire to do it. This is why the after market parts and vendors are there. They make and test the parts which are marketed to people trying to upgrade the car they own.

These guys are great at helping people acheive their goals of making the car more like what they want. The catch here is that most of the guys that do bolt ons don't know that the car has to work as a system to work the best. The guys that design after market parts understand this fact and are willing to design the parts to work with the cars they are trying to market towards. This goes back to trial and error in some cases and also ends up in mistakes. The nice thing now is that we have computer programs that can help design the parts as well as test them in a theoretical world with the computer.

As far as those of us that use "stock" parts to acheive our goals, we do this because of cost as well as the challenge of doing it. The look of someone that just dropped 5 or 6K on a suspension for their car when you out handle them is totally worth the headache of figuring out how to make your car handle better.:biggrin: Also the knowledge you have and putting it to work is proof that you know what you're doing.

 

[scot w.]

I've been watching this thread since it started 9 months ago. As someone that ran SCCA GT1 back in the 80's as well as FF1600 I can tell you that the after market parts have gotten much better in the last 20 years. Both the stock parts and the after market parts can be used to make a car work better on the road and the track. I've seen this on the dirt track cars as well. The development of after market parts for all types of cars has gone through the roof in the last few years. This is due to most people that want their cars to handle better and be more competitive with the newer cars.

I also remember the "pro street" cars that came out in the 80's. Talk about a fast car that couldn't go around a corner. Now we have new cars that can pull 1 G or better straight off the show room floor. Anyone that has worked on cars for a living has noticed the changes in the suspension designs and how much better they work. The engineering has gotten better as well as the cars and updating a car to more modern standards is a natural desire. The catch here is whether you have the knowledge to use stock parts or have to rely on knowledge of others to tell you how to do it. If you have the knowledge you can take stock parts from other cars and adapt them to yours but most just don't have the knowledge or desire to do it. This is why the after market parts and vendors are there. They make and test the parts which are marketed to people trying to upgrade the car they own.

These guys are great at helping people acheive their goals of making the car more like what they want. The catch here is that most of the guys that do bolt ons don't know that the car has to work as a system to work the best. The guys that design after market parts understand this fact and are willing to design the parts to work with the cars they are trying to market towards. This goes back to trial and error in some cases and also ends up in mistakes. The nice thing now is that we have computer programs that can help design the parts as well as test them in a theoretical world with the computer.

As far as those of us that use "stock" parts to acheive our goals, we do this because of cost as well as the challenge of doing it. The look of someone that just dropped 5 or 6K on a suspension for their car when you out handle them is totally worth the headache of figuring out how to make your car handle better.:biggrin: Also the knowledge you have and putting it to work is proof that you know what you're doing.

X2 on the highlighted!! Another good post!

Well very soon we shall have several Auto-X events and possible BAER Speed/Stop challenges at one or more of our Buick events so you guy's with handling suspensions will be able to compete and have some fun....

Scot W.

 

[marleyskater420]

This is the same thing Scott was saying back when he wasnt selling DSE parts. Almost the exact same thing actually. Now, I'm sure Scott will tell you to not mess around and just buy good parts.

What I'm trying to say here is that we all know you can make your car handle much better by doing the simple things. You will certainly notice a difference. I am certainly a believer in not spending a ton of money on unnessary or just "name brand" parts for the simple reason as to put it on your list to tell people at a car show. I think Scott will agree though, you buy these higher quality parts to make the car handle easier. We can all try to say what we use is the best, blah blah blah, but the real answer comes in engineering.

I prefer and stand by the AFX spindles becuase I understand the engineering behind them and see nothing that can come to a comparison. For me, the money is well worth the overall extreme improvement. Another thing to look at here is that these also come with double adjustable upper control arms. ANOTHER HUGE PLUS!

If you actually compare apples to apples, the AFX package is relatively inexpensive.

No matter who's system you use, as long as the engineering is there and improves our issues in the front end, it only pays to spend the money and get good parts.

Werd.

The double adjustable arms are like metal sex. I only wish Mark offered a powdercoated version instead of the raw metal finish. I want it to match my car!!

 

[killer69]

Werd.

The double adjustable arms are like metal sex. I only wish Mark offered a powdercoated version instead of the raw metal finish. I want it to match my car!!

Metal Sex lol they seem all to involved to me, how much adjusting are you going to do? once the alignment is set arn't you then done?

 

[blacksix]

Short Answer............ 1358.00 yes. the Truth......... the AFX spindle is the BEST improvement you can make on the G body. there is no other front suspension part on the market that does what the AFX spindle does. The raised roll center vastly improved bump steer, ackerman improvement. better bearings, MULTITUDE of brake package available to bolt on, lower unsprung weight all add up. It doesn't matter what you do to the front suspension you can not improve it as much as by adding the AFX spindle. Ask Mark at SC&C

Not listed on your website. Do you have anything available yet?

 

[motorhead]

The irony about Mr.T's "catalog" comments, is that most of what he bought comes from a catalog. period. Unless somehow he just knew the part numbers and options available through his amazing telepathic skills. We just don't know!

Why don't you go dig your steel out of a mountain, melt it down, mold/machine your parts and bolt them on with self made tools to your homemade ****ing car, Mr. Fixit.

You're nothing but a whiner.

This is the same assclown that was giving **** to the member (dsapper) in the lounge who is fortunate enough to be able to afford to let a quality shop build his GN.

Give it a rest.

In all seriousness there is some really good advice in this thread along with a bunch of commentary from folks without a lick of knowledge or experience in the matter. Choose the path that makes the best sense to you and listen to a) the guy who races regularly or b) the resident nutswinger.

 

[killer69]

Not listed on your website. Do you have anything available yet?

They are there just not specifically listed for the G Body "My BAD" we have them in stock now, not alot left we are currently waiting on another 250 to be forged.

 

[ross87t]

In all seriousness there is some really good advice in this thread along with a bunch of commentary from folks without a lick of knowledge or experience in the matter. Choose the path that makes the best sense to you and listen to a) the guy who races regularly or b) the resident nutswinger.

 

[motorhead]

Case in point.

 

[charlief1]

Case in point.

:biggrin:

 

[ross87t]

Case in point.

Prick^^^

Good nut hugging skills, Charlie.

 

[charlief1]

Prick^^^

Good nut hugging skills, Charlie.

My smiley was because it made me laugh.:biggrin:

All comments are subjective in the end depending on knowledge and ability. Remember that.

 

[Pronto]

Stinks when a good informative thread gets polluted. Hope it can get back to the orginal subject.

 

[jlat]

hello; I have a comment. The best set up in what ever you do may not be the best for you. I've seen it from model cars to karting. I've never put any automobile on the track but I bet it's the same. Also driving experience is another big thing to think about and as you gain seat time your setup will change.
have fun
IBBY

 

[ross87t]

My apologies. I went a little too far.

I don't see anything wrong with buying a nice "packaged" setup. If it's from a respectable company, it's generally a well thought out effective design that works. Plus, not everyone wants to piece together their own system.

Again, I apologize to Mr. T and Charlie.

 

[killer69]

Stinks when a good informative thread gets polluted. Hope it can get back to the orginal subject.

What were we talking about again?