Camshaft endplay (again)

[buickfever]

I see lots of threads addressing roller camshaft endplay (not billet), and lots of good advise for methods of getting it right. Most will probably agree that after 2 attempts, you should start over with a new gasket. Here's my question...has anyone tried using something like blue painters tape to simulate a gasket while fitting, then switch to the real deal once youre in the ballpark? I would then re-check to make sure, but i would think the tape would have a similar thickness and crush qualities as a little front cover gasket.

Also, I had my block machined for the torrington bearing, Does anyone recommend running the endplay on the tight side with this, (like .002) or follow comp cam's recommendations?

One more...I see lots of people stick their dial indicator in an oil drain hole to get their readings. This would keep the dial indicator at an obvious angle. Do I need to compensate for false readings. I know there are better methods, but I'm trying to put it together, not take something else apart.

 

[m233roller]

I wouldn't do that as that's what your getting by crushing the gasket to where it will be when done. Also all gaskets are NOT the same thickness. Stock GM is like .018 felpro is like .042. Shoot for .004 to .006 and you'll be just fine.

 

[earlbrown]

The dial indicator has to be parallel with the camshaft or you will get smaller readings.
With the bearing you can run tighter clearances if you really want to. The clearances will open up as the engine heats up since aluminum expands at twice the rate of iron.

 

[buickfever]

The dial indicator has to be parallel with the camshaft or you will get smaller readings.
With the bearing you can run tighter clearances if you really want to. The clearances will open up as the engine heats up since aluminum expands at twice the rate of iron.

So how would you go about getting a clear, parallel shot at the cam, while the block is on a stand (so accessing from the back will be dificult), and the front cover is on, to get a good reading?

 

[A2000RICH]

I see lots of threads addressing roller camshaft endplay (not billet), and lots of good advise for methods of getting it right. Most will probably agree that after 2 attempts, you should start over with a new gasket. Here's my question...has anyone tried using something like blue painters tape to simulate a gasket while fitting, then switch to the real deal once youre in the ballpark? I would then re-check to make sure, but i would think the tape would have a similar thickness and crush qualities as a little front cover gasket.

Also, I had my block machined for the torrington bearing, Does anyone recommend running the endplay on the tight side with this, (like .002) or follow comp cam's recommendations?

One more...I see lots of people stick their dial indicator in an oil drain hole to get their readings. This would keep the dial indicator at an obvious angle. Do I need to compensate for false readings. I know there are better methods, but I'm trying to put it together, not take something else apart.

if you are changing the cam you have the intake off so its easy to use a dial indicator through one of the drain holes in the bottom of the lifter galley--------personally i actually bolt the cover on with the gasket type i am going to use and make the mesurement exactly like the cam manufacturer suggests-------i remove the cover, correct the shims and then reassemble the cover with another gasket of the same type and brand so i have a "new" gasket that has not been crushed--------i throw the first one away even though it is new--------they are really cheap

 

[buickfever]

if you are changing the cam you have the intake off so its easy to use a dial indicator through one of the drain holes in the bottom of the lifter galley--------personally i actually bolt the cover on with the gasket type i am going to use and make the mesurement exactly like the cam manufacturer suggests-------i remove the cover, correct the shims and then reassemble the cover with another gasket of the same type and brand so i have a "new" gasket that has not been crushed--------i throw the first one away even though it is new--------they are really cheap

I know they are pretty cheap, just trying to save a day of waiting for Brand X auto parts store to get in a gasket for a "Turbo Regal". And your method of checking end play is what I was describing, but it sounds like readings will be off, because you can't get a straight parallel shot at the cam thru the oil drain holes, as I figured, and was confirmed by last post.
I guess if I go a little tight, while checking this way, it will average out. I'll play around with it and see what happens.

 

[A2000RICH]

I know they are pretty cheap, just trying to save a day of waiting for Brand X auto parts store to get in a gasket for a "Turbo Regal". And your method of checking end play is what I was describing, but it sounds like readings will be off, because you can't get a straight parallel shot at the cam thru the oil drain holes, as I figured, and was confirmed by last post.
I guess if I go a little tight, while checking this way, it will average out. I'll play around with it and see what happens.

--------using a second gasket is probably not necessary but i am very particular about every detail-------its easy to get a perfect parallel measurement through one of those holes -----if it weren't i would never do it------i'll take a picture tonight of how i do it all the time and post it tomorrow...........

 

[buickfever]

--------using a second gasket is probably not necessary but i am very particular about every detail-------its easy to get a perfect parallel measurement through one of those holes -----if it weren't i would never do it------i'll take a picture tonight of how i do it all the time and post it tomorrow...........

I, too am paticular. Didn't spend this much money and time to cheap out on a $4 gasket. I'll order one tonight, so I can have it tomorrow. Thanks for the advice. I'll try fishing the dial indicator in there tonight and see if it looks like you say.

 

[A2000RICH]

I, too am paticular. Didn't spend this much money and time to cheap out on a $4 gasket. I'll order one tonight, so I can have it tomorrow. Thanks for the advice. I'll try fishing the dial indicator in there tonight and see if it looks like you say.

if you have a "starrett last word" it is really simple to do it perfectly because of the way it moves

 

[buickfever]

if you have a "starrett last word" it is really simple to do it perfectly because of the way it moves

Well, I'd like to say I have all the greatest tools, and some I do, but the dial indicater I have came with my Summit cam degree kit.

 

[earlbrown]

I did mine off the rear of the engine while it was on a stand. It was a tight fit but it cleared.

I don't understand why in the world you'd set clearance, get it right and then change a gasket though??? Once it's right, it's right. Leave the cover on.

If you have to go through the valley pan, I'd probably get a long skinny dial indicator extension and bend it into a Z shape. That way the indicator can be parallel and be able to reach down and touch a journal or a lobe.

 

[buickfever]

I did mine off the rear of the engine while it was on a stand. It was a tight fit but it cleared.

I don't understand why in the world you'd set clearance, get it right and then change a gasket though??? Once it's right, it's right. Leave the cover on.
I don't wan't to give that gasket a chance to leak if it takes me 2 or 3 attempts to get it right...you don't think that's an issue? hasn't it been "crushed" after being torqued once?

If you have to go through the valley pan, I'd probably get a long skinny dial indicator extension and bend it into a Z shape. That way the indicator can be parallel and be able to reach down and touch a journal or a lobe.

I like that idea. I was overthinking things and trying to come up with an equal length fulcrom that would "rock" the cam movement to above the valley, where I would have the dial indicator mounted the opposite way. Duh...I think I'll take the easy way for $1.:biggrin:

 

[buickfever]

Did you see my comment in your second paragraph? It got thrown in with the highlighted quote.

 

[A2000RICH]

I did mine off the rear of the engine while it was on a stand. It was a tight fit but it cleared.

I don't understand why in the world you'd set clearance, get it right and then change a gasket though??? Once it's right, it's right. Leave the cover on.

If you have to go through the valley pan, I'd probably get a long skinny dial indicator extension and bend it into a Z shape. That way the indicator can be parallel and be able to reach down and touch a journal or a lobe.

not sure what you mean earl--------if you have it right there is no need to change it but its not likely to be right the first time-------at least i don't seem to be able to--------this method assumes that you might get it close first time then add or remove shims based on your measurement to get it perfect ------ then measure it one more time to verify it-------i redo the gasket since once a gasket is crushed it is never exactly the same again-------overall thickness may be the same but it is not likely to seal as good--------------
this is the contraption that i measure the cam end play with--------this type of indicator has a small pointer that moves 90 degrees from axis and makes this really easy

 

[pacecarta]

you cant use a straight line dial indicator on an angle using the lobes , you'd need the flipper type like Rich shows (well he didnt show the tip which would have made it clearer),

you can use a dial indicator straight through the hole in the front of the block to the back of the cam gear
assemble with gasket no cam button shims torquing to spec , check the clearance , measure out shims -.010 of what you measured , assemble and tighten down to .008-.005

 

[hemi8]

Sorry I have to throw in my 2cents, that method of retaining the cam is such a half-ass design. If the front cover is disturbed again you have to go through all this crap again with the engine in the car. The TA design with the cam held in place with a plate is brilliant. If I ever build another 231 the TA design goes in first.
Mike

 

[m233roller]

I agree with Mike 100% !!!!!!!

 

[KL Mallender]

I think it should be quite clear why Buick decided on using a spring loaded button, plastic on flat tappets and torrington bearing on rollers to control cam end play, I think a new front cover designed with the oil pump driven off crankshaft to eliminate the "corkscrew" effect the cam sensor/oil pump drag have on these engines is about the only real cure, IMO.

Kevin.

 

[Nick Micale]

Sorry I have to throw in my 2cents, that method of retaining the cam is such a half-ass design. If the front cover is disturbed again you have to go through all this crap again with the engine in the car. The TA design with the cam held in place with a plate is brilliant. If I ever build another 231 the TA design goes in first.
Mike

OK, i have been following this thread, and it has been hard for my simple mind to grasp all the fuss about a stock-type hydraulic roller cam retention method.

The above comment is correct, but only for a billet cam.

When the stock-type rollers first came out, we used the roller button and shims for 1 or 2 cams, then just went with the metal, roller bearing cam that is spring loaded button on the next 100 cams or so.

Seemed like a simple, easy, reliable method to me, and so far no issues.

 

[chadly]

Nick, You are always one with great knowledge. I'm here to learn so please forgive me but are saying you use a stock style cam button with spring?