Can alky hurt performance?

[Renthorin]

I usually run 93 and spray 99% iso. No problems.

Sometimes I run 100 or even 110 octane just to get that wonderful smell out the pipes

At the same time I just leave the alky system running. Does having the alky run when you don't need it (high octane) hurt performance or just not affect it?

 

[Blazer406]

IMHO..... alky would rarely (maybe never) hurt performance..... unless your air/fuel ratio is off....properly tuned...... it should do nothing but help. I run mine 7 days a week..... alky comes on at 5 psi... and progresses in.... I run 25 psi boost all the time..... pump gas.....and alky.... it rocks! nothing like taking a stock long block sans valve springs....stock turbo..... and break the street tires loose at 40 mph....... :biggrin:

 

[Alky V6]

Theory says that if you don't need the water, alcohol, whatever injection, you would be hurting performance. The reasoning is that the substance your injecting to hold off detonation is taking up valuable real estate in the combustion chamber that could be used for more fuel and air. The key words here are 'if you don't need the injection'.

 

[1 RARE T]

The fact that more boost requires more fuel then the two will balance each other if dialed in correctly.

If you're drowning it with fuel (gas+alky), you will hurt performance.

If you're set-up (chip or fuel management) is on, it's

 

[Renthorin]

Well it runs fine with high octane fuel and alky. I don't get any bogging or anything like that.

I just wondered if I turned off the alky if it would suddenly shred the tires

blazer - I wish I could roast the tires at 40. I can only break them loose in 1st gear and on the 1-2 shift :-(

 

[pacecarta]

if your chip is tuned for alky it should have fuel pulled to be replaced with alky to maintain a/f ratio . an alky chip may have fueling to support 15-17 psi of boost , if you run more boost and havent changed the chip and pull out the alky whether you run race gas or 93 you will be lean and could damage , octane wont save you if you run lean

 

[Razor]

Theory says that if you don't need the water, alcohol, whatever injection, you would be hurting performance. The reasoning is that the substance your injecting to hold off detonation is taking up valuable real estate in the combustion chamber that could be used for more fuel and air. The key words here are 'if you don't need the injection'.

I disagree.. methanol is a fuel.. doh..

Water on the other hand.. ahh.. thats another story.

5% is the typical gain at same boost level, with a lower air fuel ratio. Tested up to 800 RWHP on 93 octane pump gas.

 

[EightSecV6]

I use/tune Razors alky kit on many street and race cars. The car will ALWAYS make more horsepower on the dyno with methanol and race gas than just straight race gas. You have to tune for it though. I crank the knob all the way up (max pump speed) and trim the activation setpoint. Most of the stuff we use it on exceeds 500rwhp and runs a management system. The A/F ratio needs to be kept considerably more rich when using meth. (if you run 11.5:1 you'll make more power spraying meth at 10.5:1) and you can crank a little more timing in it.Just my findings after hours of pushing on the dyno and gallons of methanol.

 

[PaCemkr86]

I use/tune Razors alky kit on many street and race cars. The car will ALWAYS make more horsepower on the dyno with methanol and race gas than just straight race gas. You have to tune for it though. I crank the knob all the way up (max pump speed) and trim the activation setpoint. Most of the stuff we use it on exceeds 500rwhp and runs a management system. The A/F ratio needs to be kept considerably more rich when using meth. (if you run 11.5:1 you'll make more power spraying meth at 10.5:1) and you can crank a little more timing in it.Just my findings after hours of pushing on the dyno and gallons of methanol.

nice info thanks for sharing

 

[Alky V6]

I disagree.. methanol is a fuel.. doh..

Water on the other hand.. ahh.. thats another story.

5% is the typical gain at same boost level, with a lower air fuel ratio. Tested up to 800 RWHP on 93 octane pump gas.

I stand corrected. Can't argue with real world results.
So in a situation where the injection really isn't needed, and I stress, isn't needed, you will make more HP if you inject only as a coolant? Same boost, timing, etc.

 

[Razor]

I stand corrected. Can't argue with real world results.
So in a situation where the injection really isn't needed, and I stress, isn't needed, you will make more HP if you inject only as a coolant? Same boost, timing, etc.

Yes, but depending on how much is sprayed, an air fuel adjustment may be warranted.

 

[Alky V6]

So what ever happened with the people squirting rubbing alcohol and such. Has everyone finally figured out that methanol is the true answer? What about the 50/50 mix of meth and water? Water having a superior latent heat of vaporization. What is the effects of running that mix over the straight meth?

 

[Blazer406]

So what ever happened with the people squirting rubbing alcohol and such. Has everyone finally figured out that methanol is the true answer? What about the 50/50 mix of meth and water? Water having a superior latent heat of vaporization. What is the effects of running that mix over the straight meth?

IMHO.... most of the other mixtures that aren't methanol.... are just for the cooling effect..... not necessarily the cooling+fuel.... best of both worlds..... most folks not running pure methanol... are trying to save a buck...... methanol is an awesome race fuel.... and you get the cooling to boot..... can't get much better than that IMHO......

 

[EightSecV6]

I stand corrected. Can't argue with real world results.
So in a situation where the injection really isn't needed, and I stress, isn't needed, you will make more HP if you inject only as a coolant? Same boost, timing, etc.

Sort of Don, I think you benefit a little from the cooling but we usually pull fuel and essentially replace it with methanol which allows us to run more timing/boost (less detonation). You are far more experienced than I am with running straight methanol. If you had the tune up close on race gas and started spraying Methanol,you would lose power but WITH methanol you can tune for more. The benefits are similar to what you see by running straight alcohol.

 

[Alky V6]

Sort of Don, I think you benefit a little from the cooling but we usually pull fuel and essentially replace it with methanol which allows us to run more timing/boost (less detonation). You are far more experienced than I am with running straight methanol. If you had the tune up close on race gas and started spraying Methanol,you would lose power but WITH methanol you can tune for more. The benefits are similar to what you see by running straight alcohol.

That is the answer I was looking for. Thanks.
Still I'm interested in the 50/50, water/methanol mix. I have read in so many articles that this is the way to go. Even over straight methanol. Studies that go clear back to WWII. Has anyone done any testing?

 

[Razor]

That is the answer I was looking for. Thanks.
Still I'm interested in the 50/50, water/methanol mix. I have read in so many articles that this is the way to go. Even over straight methanol. Studies that go clear back to WWII. Has anyone done any testing?

If your concern is to suppress detonation, then anything will work.

Running 50/50 will allow more boost to be run since it handles detonation. But there is a fine line between handling detonation and making power. Just becuase you run more boost doesnt mean it will make a substantial amount of power. And the debates on this are endless.

If the injection system will handle straight methanol, water is a non-issue. Experiment and see what your engine likes best.

I could never run the boost levels/air fuel levels I run on mixing. This is personal experience. And as you stated.. leaving timing and boost alone..you shoot mix.. it will nose down.

I know of cars that run 26 PSI boost using WW fluid as the medium and run high 12's/13's in the 1/4. It does do 26 PSI... just not going anywhere with it.. and this is the concept that yields the conflicts.. becuase you make boost... doesnt mean you make power.

 

[Grumpy]

That is the answer I was looking for. Thanks.
Still I'm interested in the 50/50, water/methanol mix. I have read in so many articles that this is the way to go. Even over straight methanol. Studies that go clear back to WWII. Has anyone done any testing?

did a track rental ... ran 9.8's with a 50/50 mix ... just took it out and ran straight meth 9.6's .. this guy was also a believer in 50/50 mix ... now I get to say "I told ya so"

 

[Alky V6]

Good info guys. Thanks.

 

[87we410877]

Sort of Don, I think you benefit a little from the cooling but we usually pull fuel and essentially replace it with methanol which allows us to run more timing/boost (less detonation). You are far more experienced than I am with running straight methanol. If you had the tune up close on race gas and started spraying Methanol,you would lose power but WITH methanol you can tune for more. The benefits are similar to what you see by running straight alcohol.

Hey Bill, You say you pull fuel to inject the meth and make more power but in an above comment you stated that you change your AFR from 11.x down to 10.xx. Wouldnt that meen an increase in fuel?

 

[EightSecV6]

Hey Bill, You say you pull fuel to inject the meth and make more power but in an above comment you stated that you change your AFR from 11.x down to 10.xx. Wouldnt that meen an increase in fuel?

Gasoline burns completely at 14.7:1 a/f ratio and Methanol burns at a ratio of 6.45:1 a/f ratio I think?? For comparison sake, if you remove 1lb/hr of fuel, you would replace it with 2lb/hr of Methanol. Basically because methanol makes the power at a far richer a/f ratio, you have to take that into consideration when you spray it, especially in large quantities.You have to nearly double the quantity of meth compared to the amount of fuel you remove, hence the increased a/f ratio. Difficult for me to explain what I mean! sorry