Carbed fwd 3.8 or 3800ness of DOOMDOM???

[vega]

Ok here is the deal i am thinking of taking a fwd 3.8 (that same enigne you guys got in your GNs except with a fwd bolt pattern - thye put them in like grand prixes and other buicks in the 90's like reatas i think...) and throw a car at it.

But here is my problem i would be using a a series 2 3.8 NA (no SC) and turbo charging it. is there a carborated intake setup for the 3.8 beging sold by anyone at all? If so what kind of power gains/loses should i expect when i switch to a carb. And could i not just use the carborator setup they used on teh 231s from say after the odd fire eyars from like 77-84 ish on the new motors with aluminum heads or is that not an option?

here is a thread at penocks fiero forum that i have already started if you guys need more of an over viero of what i am planning.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/070547.html

Thanx for whatever you gys can help out with.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

No there is no carb intake for a Series II L36, nor the Series I L36. You will need a 3.8 FWD motor (84-91 I think) to use either the FWD manifold or an aftermarket carbed manifold. Also there are no Aluminum heads for the Series II motors except the few GM developmental peices that are in the hands of mostly W-body race shops.
Why not use the metal L26 (Series III NA motor) manifold or better yet a complete L67 and use a gutted blower case and keep the EFI using either the DHP Powertuner or HPTuner to edit out the stuff you don't need for your Fiero and run the turbo? Visit www.clubgp.com and check out their turbo section and the fiero section aswell as a lot of guys go for the L67 Supercharged motor. Also checkout www.L67swap.com for info about how to put a Series I or II into a P-body Fiero.

 

[vega]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_3800_engine

"In 1986, the engine was modified for transverse-mounting in smaller, FWD vehicles. About this same time, the 3800 designation was introduced, and these engines would later be considered the Series I. This generation continued in use in several GM products, including Australian Holdens, into the 1990s. It produced 170 hp (127 kW) when it was replaced by the L36 in 1995.

The turbocharged 1986 Buick Regal Grand National was called America's quickest automobile, and the model continues to be collected and appreciated today.

The supercharged version appeared in 1992 on the Buick Park Avenue Ultra. The Supercharged version that appeared in 1992 was also used in the Pontiac Bonneville SSEi and supercharged versions of the SSE, and as optional equipment in the 1995 Buick Riviera."

So is there a carb set up i can use at all for this motor? they speak of in these cars? I want a turbo setup because of the on the fly adjustment capabilities unlike a sc. i refered to teh series 2 because i did not knwo that there was a fwd 3.8 int eh 80's. I do nto want fuel injection for many reasons. so i am again curious if there is a carb'carb intake setup for these that workout at all being sold by anyone or if the carb/carb intak setup from 77-84 will work on that motor.


---- maybe i am not being clear- is there ANY carb setup for the fuel injected fwd 3.8s? even aftermarket or one off an old 3.8 logitudal. i just want to go car for a turbo setup/ because wiring sucks to do.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

Yes, the early ones share the same manifolds as the longitudionally mounted ones. Once you get into Series I and Series II stuff they won't work as they cut 1" off the deckheight, changed to an oncenter block, and changed the port design. You'll need the 84-92 engine with the FWD bolt pattern and the the later ones came with centerbolt valve covers on 8445 heads which are the same as the RWD motors except for the valve covers.

 

[vega]

I am going to seperate these in two different questions - for the sake of my own brain being confused by your answeres (not your fault i am just missing what you are saying based off of your writign technique (the words you use along with another) i tend to use another i am just simply more familier with others. So please do excuse my ignorance on such subjects.

1. so you are saying i can use a carborated manifold from say 82 from a 3.8 and use it on a fwd 3.8 from 86? yes or no... (not to be blunt but i just don't get what you are trying to tell me with all the other info with it)

2. as far as turbo charging that fwd 3.8 from 86 i am sure there is plenty of aftermarket parts such as forged ; psitons,rings, bearings, rods, and seels, and aluminum heads too. I am just not sure where you would get them. any sujestions there too. No need to answer this question if the answer to teh first question is no.

thanx for your help btw it is great to get some answers on this. thi two big issues with this going in a fiero is the tranny (auto) and with the electronics
if there is no electronics then it is all about the tranny.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

I am going to seperate these in two different questions - for the sake of my own brain being confused by your answeres (not your fault i am just missing what you are saying based off of your writign technique (the words you use along with another) i tend to use another i am just simply more familier with others. So please do excuse my ignorance on such subjects.

1. so you are saying i can use a carborated manifold from say 82 from a 3.8 and use it on a fwd 3.8 from 86? yes or no... (not to be blunt but i just don't get what you are trying to tell me with all the other info with it)

Yes, infact all 3.8L except for the FWD (don't know when they switched) and Turbo applications (84-87) are 2bbl carbs stock, 79-84 4.1L are 4bbl carbs. Weiand, Edlebrock, and Offenhauser all make aftermarket manifolds to fit.

2. as far as turbo charging that fwd 3.8 from 86 i am sure there is plenty of aftermarket parts such as forged ; psitons,rings, bearings, rods, and seels, and aluminum heads too. I am just not sure where you would get them. any sujestions there too. No need to answer this question if the answer to teh first question is no.

Correct, everything that will fit a Grand National will fit your FWD with the exception of the transmission. So GN1 aluminum heads, JE forged pistons, Eagle Forged Cranks, Full Throttle Forged Rods.... All will fit. Hit the home button at the top of the page and check the vendors for prices and such are all the above parts.

thanx for your help btw it is great to get some answers on this. thi two big issues with this going in a fiero is the tranny (auto) and with the electronics
if there is no electronics then it is all about the tranny.

No idea if your Fiero tranny is a GM 'E' transmission or not. The stock tranny out of a FWD 3.8 application you'd need won't be, just would need a lockup kit to control the torque converter (or do it manually with an on/off switch but then you'll have to remember to unlock it) with the carb. If you plan on using a 4T65E-HD you will need a transmission controller, simple but expensive.

 

[vega]

Yes, infact all 3.8L except for the FWD (don't know when they switched) and Turbo applications (84-87) are 2bbl carbs stock, 79-84 4.1L are 4bbl carbs. Weiand, Edlebrock, and Offenhauser all make aftermarket manifolds to fit.

Correct, everything that will fit a Grand National will fit your FWD with the exception of the transmission.

In the first part you say "except fwd" but in the second paragraph you start saying anything the GN had will fit my FWD..... So that DOES mean any of the manifolds from 84-87 that was on a longitudal 3.8 like the GN (whihc was rear wheal drive) will fit on the transversly mounted 3.8 from 86-87 which was fwd?

Cooly that will work well then. I have your AIM now so i will try to get a hol dof you that way as well. My Aim is lambog24 btw so don't be alarmed when that screen name tries talking to you.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

The FWD applications that I know of are all fuel injected for those years, meaning the manifold you will get on the motor from a yard will be EFI. A carb manifold will bolt right on in its stead though.

 

[VadersV6]

So what is it about fuel injection that scares you? Its not as scary as it seems. There are so many advantages to going FI that it makes the thought of going carb seem silly.
Computer.
Wiring harness.
Fuel system.
Sensors.
Most TR motors you find in the classified forums and ebay or whatever, usually come with all this stuff, or at the least, they have these parts and will sell them for a little extra. There are guys on this board who part out TR's like crazy. Finding the parts isnt hard. There are alot of good people on here who could help you figure out the fuel injection setup. Almost seems like it would be way harder to switch to carb, the more I think about it.

 

[vega]

No it has nothing to do with that- i come from dsms hondas and nissan- turst me no probelm at all. BUT the wring it takes to wire one of these to a fiero is out of my league and i whave little time or momey or help from locals to help me do as such. carbeign a motor i have done before and (mustnag 5 .0) it is not that difficult to me. a turbo setup with teh right carb and intake will work jsut fine for lower numebrs i am not looking for 2000hp i am looking to have say 400 at max. i like turbos over superchargers because the on the fly adjustment capabilityies.


ANd thanx man that really helped being more strait forward! THANX A BUNCH MAN! Now to do some resarch on this motor for power gains- any sujestions to make 400 hp with a turbo setup (home made btw)

 

[WIKEDV6]

Just in case if you change your mind about injection

Hey, if you look at John Lindsey’s set up, you may have to go over to turbobuicks under the hybrid section and do a search under his name, you will find that he used a setup from a 1986 Bonneville 3.8 FWD motor and the computer/harness setup in his Fiero. I think it will be a lot easier to accomplish your goals this way. He ran the best of 12.00 @ 120+ with out an intercooler in his Fiero. If you contact him, he will tell you exactly how it was done. His car will be in the 10's soon or later.

I know there is more than one way to skin a cat, but I think this way will a lot easier. There is also another member there, he goes by the name of turbodr1, and his name is Vern. He also had a 3.8 turbo setup in a Cutlass Ciera wagon. The last I heard was he was looking to sell that set up.


HTH
Prasad

 

[turbodave231]

I beleive what you are looking for can be found in a 1984-85 FWD Buick Century or 1985 Park Avenue. These 3.8 engines used the same heads as the rear drive engines, used fuel injection, and had distributors. An early 3.0 VIN E Buick (also found in early Buick Century's) intake, and carb should fit just fine.

You can get rid of the fuel injection intake, You'll need a vacuum advance distributor from a 1979-1980 Buick engine to make it work without a computer.

 

[SHADOWII]

have you looked at the 83 turbo manifold- It is a carb'd set up. it will work for you w/ the vacuum adv. distributer, as turbodave has suggested. don't forget the alchy injection to keep the air charge temps down.
the 83 came w/an elec. carb and computer controlled distributer. turbo set in middle of the manifold.

 

[vega]

Not to bring up an old thread- but i am finally getting the chance to start swaping in the 4t60 (non e- i found out that the e is not much less strong then an e if any at all you just want to get the latest year you can get because gm improved it over the years so much- and not only that but parts from later years with electroncially controlled perfromance parts will actually work with the non-e it is jsut controlled with a solinoid that is the ONLY difference- infact seeing tha tgm kept on imporving the 60 series tranny i could put stock parts in from say 99 into a 88 and the tranny it self will be stronger just because the parts were improved over time. courtasy of chenny trans in champlin MN)

So with this intake from edelebrock under the even fire 231- this will work correct? http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/man_buick.html

And not only that you said for the 4t60 i will need a "vacuum advance distributor from a 1979-1980 Buick engine to make it work without a computer" well those are not fwd motors - so your saying that even thought he fwd 3.8 did nto start till 84 that those 79-80 vacume advance dis will work with say an 88 fwd 3.8 from a H frame?

 

[turbofish38]

If you are going to use a distributor than you need to run a block that has a provision for one. The dist is housed in the front engine cover on a 3.8/3800. The only year of FWD block that has a matching dist front cover is the 1985 3.8 found in the Park Ave/Century/Olds 98/Ciera. 1985 ONLY. The later blocks will not except the dist style cover. A totally different bolt pattern on the front of the blocks. And I believe the 3.0 carb FWD motors have a shorter deck height than the 3.8 so it probally will be a problem using a block from those earlier FWD cars. Everything between the old 3.8 RWD engines interchange more or less with the 85-88 pre-series 1 FWD engines. The big differences is the crankshaft and the blocks are tailored for FWD useage.

 

[vega]

thanx turbo fish-

maybe i am missing something- but do i NEED to run a distrubutor? can't i run just some sort of msd setup? will that mean i will also need the 1985 trans as well? so could i use the rwd crank?

i suppose i proabbly should get a 1985 anyhow just because the fact that my fiero is an 85 gt- and yes what ever i am young- i was born in 85. youth does nto matter other then misguided enthusiasm which i am known for. Albeight i am currently working for ashland corp under NOT instant oil change but in r and d deps for marketing and adverting. i am an art ma and advertising major.- so that being said most of this will have the possibilit of being funded i am have been talking to my managor and he is getting very interested and we are talking about sponsoring my car JOY....

 

[turbofish38]

I got lost in all of the posts. List the parts that you have and I'll try and figure out what you can use in your carb-turbo swap. Right now it sounds like the logical thing to do is find an 85 FWD 3.8. I've got a picture of a carb-turbo'd FWD from the early 80's and I'll try and post it. It might give you a better idea on some of the differences between the V-6's.

 

[vega]

turbofish38-
HEY THAT WOULD BE GREAT TO SEE THAT PIC.

ok one i am still looking for a motor i would like- i found one for a 150 and the other for 200 bucks i have not bougt either, both are 85 3.8 fwd fuel injected.

I have not bougt the engine or the tranny more almost anthing at all- i have a 85' gt fiero with the 2.8 lt v6 (joy), and the 3 speed 125c which has no reverse and no nuetral (that makes it fun....).

I have been over many of sites but everyone is doing the newer motors- i think if i were to rebuild an old fwd 3.8(85 to 88) seeing the parts are gnx parts it can be turboed for cheap. i would rather carb for price and ease for myself- i would prefer a blow through carb setup. i like turbos over superchargers for personal preference and the type(s) of racing i enjoy. (plus the price as well).

This is how one can swap everything in a fiero as far as i can tell BUT this onyl discusses the series 1 and 2 motors. So i am not sure if i will be needing to run a distributor or not.
http://dtcc.cz28.com/swap/3800.htm
Fiero 3800 engine swap info

here is alot of the info i have found from wiki about the 3.8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine
Buick V6 engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the fiero forum.
http://www.fiero.nl/cgi-bin/fiero/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=2.+Technical+Discussion+|AMP|+Questions&number=2
Pennock's Fiero Forum

So:
A. 85-88 3.8 carbed turbo
B. 4t60 transmition will build it to hold to 250hp and whatever amount of tq that will end up being with the 3.8 turbo carb setup
c. i already have the 85 gt fiero 3 speed thm125c 2.8lt v6

Anything else that could help you help me i can let you know. Also do you have an IM mine is lambog24 for AIM and for email and MSN IM it is dupontlm@gdnmail.net

i live in MN right now so heck if you and i could have coffee and discuss GNs and such that would be great too- i would be more then willing to make it my treat.

vega-

 

[vega]

I just fiexed the 125c some ness at the shifter cables! Yeah. well i can still sell the trans then.

 

[turbofish38]

I'm not set up for IM. I do all of this from my work PC. Anyway it sounds like an easy swap even if you wanted to keep the 125C. The 3.8 will bolt in place of the 2.8. All of the cradle mounts look to be in the same place. This rule applies to the FWD cars so I'm assuming it is the same for a Fiero. You run into problems when you try to swap out an iron duke 4 banger. The RWD carb manifold will bolt on the 8445 casting heads or the 86 center hold down head. Everything from a RWD engine will fit on that 85 FWD engine. The cranks are different because the FWD is shorter on the snout for clearance in the engine bay and it has a different FW flange. The front cover has the same block bolt pattern but is different in the water pump because of the same clearance problems. The FWD version is just plain shorter by an inch or so. Which is good. There are a couple of guys running 10's on the NA cranks so the stocker should live in you project with out any problems. Rods,bearings,pistons and camshafts all interchange. I would also run the FWD oil pan and pickup screen. It has the correct sump and baffle for a transverse application