Champion Racing Heads- Read This!!

[Kid with a toy]

Back off topic//then back on topic

Thanks for the FYI on the "secret goop".

I too, have been shopping for a new set of heads. But, after this little incident, I might wait and see what the outcome of your situation is.

Thanks again,

Erik

 

[The Pro]

Temporarily removed to handle this issue at the lowest possible level.

 

[KEVINS]

I wish you and Tom luck.. Nobody likes to see things work out like this and it does sound like he is trying to take responsibilty..

Best wishes!
ks

 

[Scott231]

The "secret goop" is simply the sealer that Jay Carter began using years ago on the advice of Forcelle & Clark (maker of the copper head gaskets for Buick Stage motors). You can use:

1. GE 1200,
2. GE 1209,
3. GE 1009,
4. GE SSG-4000 , or
5. Dow Corning 732.
   [/list=1]
   
   You need to go to contractor building supply houses to get the stuff, not your local Home Improvement center (although you might find the DC stuff there).

 

[JCotton]

Hate to hear and see these kind of problems arise, but feel I need to step up here and share my experiences with heads as well. As most know I am a distributor of Champion heads, in case you don't know, I am also a used of the very same heads that I sell. I know both Steve and Tom equally as well. It's unfortunate when I see someone have a problem and even more unfortunately when the time period involved to straighten out a problem becomes lengthy. When I am involved in the sale of these heads, I do all that I can to ensure that a speedy closure to a problem is accomplished and the customer is satisfied. I will do whatever it takes. I'm happy to see that Steve will be taken care of, as Tom has always taken care of me.
As for the many, many sets of heads I have sold, I can say that 90% or more have been without a problem. I realize that flaws can occur, but then wasn't that one of the downfalls of the original M$A head? I believe Toms heads have been the best to date, not to mention Tom has continually upgraded and improved on them as the situation arose. I would pe4rsonally like to thank Tom for all the time and effort he put into these from the beginning, all at his expense. As long as he addresses problem and continues to improve on these aluminum heads I will continue to use them.
I've run them on all my motors from my stock blocks to my stage motor. They were awsome back then and even more impressive now. My new R heads I installed over a year ago, with well over 200 passes have never been off the car. I haven't had any guide, cracking or leaking problems.
opps, sent this post before I was done, sorry.
My original R heads did crack, which Tom did fix and then were fine after that for many more passes. I'm speaking from my opinions and experience, not only as a distributor, but most importantly as an end user just like anyone else. I sympathize with Steve, and hope all is well, unfortunately I spoke with him a little bit ago but lost him on the phone before we could finish our conversation. All I can say at this point is Tom may not handle every situation perfectly and maybe not correctly, but he does support our little community when no one else would, lets not forget that. He supplies with many other products as well, valve covers, IAC relocation blocks, the best iron ported heads on the market, not to mention alluminum heads. This is not an info mercial, just the facts. I rarely see anyone stepping up to thank him, I'd like to do that today.
thanks, hope I haven't offended anyone here, just wanted to share my experience.

 

[Buick Beginner]

Just 2 more cents

It's a shame it has had to come to this in our society, but I pay for just about anything I buy with my VISA card these days. Give me a bad product or bad service? I'll call up and dispute the charge - that automatically starts a 6 week arbitration period. It's amazing how concerned vendors get when your money is debited back out of thier account. Buyers have to have some protection don't they? Sorry about the headache. - BB

 

[summit]

Not the only game in town??? Until TA releases their head I think Champion is the only game in town for satge motored cars not willing to go Stage heads. My champions lasted three trips to the track at 19 PSI and 24 degrees timing on C16 before cracking. I was not going to put up with that so immediately switched to StageII heads. Alot of work and money, but it should be bulletproof now, and has proven to be so far. After all the trouble we have had with customer heads and the subsequent after the sale service I would not recommend Champion aluminum heads to anyone. Stick with steel heads on a stock block, stage heads on a stage block.

Greg Kring
9.29@149.5
3500 lbs with AC

 

[The Pro]

Temporarily removed to handle this issue at the lowest possible level.

 

[S2V6RACER]

I have my fingers crossed. Motor won't be in the car untill next spring......

 

[Race Jace]

Originally posted by Scott231
The "secret goop" is simply the sealer that Jay Carter began using years ago on the advice of Forcelle & Clark (maker of the copper head gaskets for Buick Stage motors). You can use:

1. GE 1200,
2. GE 1209,
3. GE 1009,
4. GE SSG-4000 , or
5. Dow Corning 732.
   [/list=1]
   
   You need to go to contractor building supply houses to get the stuff, not your local Home Improvement center (although you might find the DC stuff there).

1. 
   
   yes Scott, I got that little neat receipe from Jay Carter, I always try to make a point to give credit where credit is due.
   
   I thought i was the "other guy" Neal was talking about

 

[Jeff Rand]

What the Pro said gets to the root of this thread. Just tell me the truth and I am more then willing to work with you. What's sad about Tom is that he believes his own lies! I respect Jack Cotton but I do not have respect for an outright lier!
Jeff Rand

 

[Datsunboy]

Let me first say, I have no experience with tom or champion heads, but have had simaler experiences.

Honestly, its great tom supports the buick as a vendor, however what good is a vendor who isnt honest and forthright.

When I was building my nissan L28t motor and dealing with a vendor in cali (NL in business) I got jacked around for a year on pistons. I spent almost a grand on a set of pistons... amazing. I actually flew to cali to visit a freind and look for him. I never did find him, which is in his best interest.

Point being, dealing with a bull$hitter can ruin your day. If its a week its a week, if its a year, for christ sake tell me! Thats all I ask.

I wont even consider buying heads from tom at this point, sorry but I can't deal with another vendor like this.

Pardon the rant - Evan

 

[XXQUICK6XX]

Champion Heads

One question I have is why did you send your heads to Seattle to be checked? Isnt there any machine shops in Austin. I have had a set of GN-1's for about 4 years or so on a street driven motor and a race motor with just usual maintenance ie occasional head gasket. And Ive never been misled by Tom personally. And I agree with Jack that maybe yours could be a problem set and I don't see a date of when you purchased or from who or if you bought them used. The more info you offer some times helps enlighten us to the severity of your problem. And if you feel he's using caller ID to avoid you then why wouldn't you use a different phone to call from. The only thing I hate seeing is all this vender bashing because before you know it there wont be any then what are you going to do then. And I've been stiffed by a few of our fellow board members but I chalk it up to experience. Which is far less than any problems i've encountered from any venders. And I know from dealing with venders in the field I work in the way you present your self usually reflects the way you get handled. And don't get me wrong I'm not saying that if they are new heads that Tom should't take care of them he should! But did you purchase them direct or thru a vender if you did then why don't you send to them since he is the one that would pry have a little more leverage to deal with Tom. Like I said earlier in my post I can only speculate to your issue is and I hope that you don't take this personally but Ive learned a little patience goes a long way.

Steve

 

[The Pro]

Where I send my heads is irrelevant IMO, but it just so happens that I know this guy in Seattle through a friend, and he does some of the best work I've ever seen. I tend to take my stuff to places that I can verify quality (I like to think I'm not alone in that regard). If I had a local option I could say that same thing for, I'd use it. All that's near me is a bunch of sackless rice-heads and chuked out Mustang n00bs as far as cylinder head experts go. Since I travel all over, I don't blink an eye about waiting an extra week to send a set of $3500.00 heads to ensure they are *perfect* when they leave his shop.

I didn't buy them used. Bought them brand freaking new. These heads had NEVER seen street duty, were NEVER raced. Installed, ran the engine a bit, checked oil, and voila. Emulsified water in oil. Upon teardown and inspection, we discovered a flaw in the head.

As to the caller ID thing, should I *have* to do that? Hmm? I don't think I should.

Enlighten you as to the severity of the problem. Hmmm... New heads, they leaked. Does it matter if it's a hairline crack or a San Andreas style gash? A problem isn't quantified by severity if the effect is the same: I shoot you in the head, or poison you, you're dead either way. Same problem: You've assumed room temperature... The heads were unusuable on my motor, they leaked water.

As to how I present myself. Tom will tell you himself that I have been *extremely* patient, and *very* professional. I may not always say things that make him happy, but I've never cussed him out or been unreasonable. When I started this thread, I'd had enough. I am not depriving some village of an idiot. I am *well* aware of how to deal with difficult people, and how to manage problems. I do that sort of thing for a living.

Like I said in my original post, which I've removed to give Tom the opportunity to solve this at the lowest possible level; 6 months is plenty of time to resolve a problem of this insignifcance. In fact, as per my updates, I hadn't been able to reach Tom until yesterday. We talked (yet again) and came to (another) understanding. I told him this morning that if he makes it right, I'll stand tall and tell everyone he made it right. I also said if it isn't made right, I'll stand up and say that too. I removed and saved the original posts to give him another opportunity to address the issues.

On a side note, I'm glad you haven't had problems with your heads. You think I wanted problems with mine?

 

[XXQUICK6XX]

Heads

Thanks for the quick responce. Because with out some of the pieces of the puzzle you don't get to look at the whole picture. I hope you see where I am comming from. Because I now understand where you are comming from now. And can understand your frustration even more. I personally hope that all works out for you. And as far as the caller ID thing I see your point but was just trying to express a alternative resource to get thru if some body was trying to avoid you. Wish you luck and hope everything works out.

Steve

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

many product no matter what it will have flaws at some point or another .. i understand there are many GN1's that have cracked and many that have not cracked.

i looked at a set in person for the first time yesterday (Geno's old heads) and i think they are very nice pieces and im going to roll the dice and buy a set for myself.

best part is the guy knows some of them have problems and does what he can to fix them...thats much better than dealing with an azz that wont admit they have a problem with a certain product (51) and wont do nothing for you except tell you how stupid you are.

i realize i might get a set that leaks and may be a year getting them fixed but i do feel he will get them fixed but what choices do we have ? i want the best heads out there and from what i see this may be the price i have to pay to get them.

hope it all works out on the ones in question cause im watching closely and so far it looks like he stands behind his products which is good enough in my book.

 

[Steve Wood]

Roll the dice? It's sad when it comes down to a gamble.

With the number of posts overs the past few years from people who could not get satisfaction of any kind on the heads, I would be sure to buy from some one like Jack Cotton who says he will stand up for you and make sure that you get fair treatment if there is a problem.

I am sure there are more out there having good luck than those that have problems but those that had problems have had to struggle and fight to get any help. Better to have a major vendor who will try to do the right thing on your behalf than do it as an individual, in my opinion.

 

[GTEATER]

I guess there is some truth in that statement Steve. But the more I think about it, I think its the bad luck of the draw.

I got a set of cracked heads from Champion, but it was resolved quickly ( without a vendor advocate). Art Carr screwed me, but others have had good experiences. After all, what lobbying power did PTE give with the econo cam joke?

Fact is that vendor are in the business to make money. The whole idea that someone with a reoccuring problem should keep quiet for the sake of the turbo buick masses is foolish. If you make money on a bad design you should make it right...I think its called a recall. Every set of Gn1s I've seen (5 sets) have been cracked. Every econo cam I've seen (4 cams) were coming apart. Oh, I forgot the standard answer from ATR, PTE, Art Carr,Champion,ESP, ect...."we've never heard or seen that before"

 

[Steve Wood]

I agree completely.