compression ratio comparison

[ek02]

I sent Futten an e-mail with the old Kenne Bell N/A dragstrip and chassis dyno tests from the eighties so he can get an idea of what it takes to get HP from a 231, a 252, and a 274, plus the Stage II engines.

 

[bison]

I sent Futten an e-mail with the old Kenne Bell N/A dragstrip and chassis dyno tests from the eighties so he can get an idea of what it takes to get HP from a 231, a 252, and a 274, plus the Stage II engines.

Post them here

 

[pacecarta]

i

 

[ek02]

Here are 2 PDF files I scanned from the original Kenne Bell test sheets. These were all N/A engines in a Skyhawk. The "Stage II" got into the high tens. At that time, Kenne Bell referred to "Stage II heads" as their max port job on production heads. This Tech Tips news letter has no mention of turbos in the 8 pages of info, so it is maybe 1979-1980 info. I installed a lot of the Kenne Bell 455 stuff in the late 70's and bought a lot of V6 parts in the early to late 80's. They were the only one stop supplier of Buick parts back than that I knew of.

 

[bison]

Looks like the iron heads are severely limited. When they switched to stage 2 heads and switched cams on the 13:1 engine it picked up almost 100hp.

 

[ek02]

Those probably were real Stage ll heads because they used an Edelbrock intake, and Jim Bell hated the Edelbrock intake for a production motor. Edelbrock made some Stage ll intakes back then. Mosler, if it's the same guy that ported the heads, may have had some GTP cars.

 

[bison]

Those probably were real Stage ll heads because they used an Edelbrock intake, and Jim Bell hated the Edelbrock intake for a production motor. Edelbrock made some Stage ll intakes back then. Mosler, if it's the same guy that ported the heads, may have had some GTP cars.

Idk. I had a pair of their ported heads. They were really good and made as much power as anything you'd see available today but were still spring limited

 

[fuzzyGN]

Yep, so to get a 231 to over 300hp takes 13:1 with a BIG roller cam and about every other trick you can get. Obviously a nice set of ported aluminum heads would help a bunch but sbc these aint. It costs lots-o-bucks to play N/A. The chart is especially interesting whn you gain only 20ci but get 35hp. The ratio of ci/hp is close but the bigger engine picks up a little more. Now if they had stepped up the cam again (bigger engine effectively makes the cam smaller) it probably would have picked up a bunch more hp. They sure spent a ton of time and money back then. It is interesting data.

 

[bison]

That and the fact that the operating range of the engine is very high and narrow. Either a very high stall automatic application with a lot of gear or a stick with a crap load of gearing to get it out.

 

[fuzzyGN]

The converter for my new engine is a nice streetable 8" with 5200 stall. Currently have a 4.33 gear (probably not enough) but a very short 25.5 tall tire which will help. The car will weigh 2400 pounds max (totally redoing the entire car) which will help also. A 300hp N/A 231 primarily driven on the street is not very feasible without the help of nitrous. It has been an interesting adventure for sure.

 

[Jay J]

Erik: When are you gonna run it?

 

[turbo89]

The converter for my new engine is a nice streetable 8" with 5200 stall. Currently have a 4.33 gear (probably not enough) but a very short 25.5 tall tire which will help. The car will weigh 2400 pounds max (totally redoing the entire car) which will help also. A 300hp N/A 231 primarily driven on the street is not very feasible without the help of nitrous. It has been an interesting adventure for sure.

Not the same setup as yours .... but 278cid NA ... 12.8:1 compression ... iron heads .. single carb.. 3380 pounds .. 5 speed car.. 6.17 gears .. 9200 rpm's = 10.34 @ 131
Brutal launches and the car trips the 60-foot with the back tires. Its a serious blast to drive .. only thing that sucks is .. you miss a gear and your done.

 

[Jay J]

I think I got lost at "nice streetable 5200 stall converter...

 

[ek02]

Not the same setup as yours .... but 278cid NA ... 12.8:1 compression ... iron heads .. single carb.. 3380 pounds .. 5 speed car.. 6.17 gears .. 9200 rpm's = 10.34 @ 131
Brutal launches and the car trips the 60-foot with the back tires. Its a serious blast to drive .. only thing that sucks is .. you miss a gear and your done.

This is a serious V6. Stage ll iron heads? Tell us more.

 

[turbo89]

This is a serious V6. Stage ll iron heads? Tell us more.

the NA motors can make serious power @ serious RPM ... The car I posted above is not something I could say I would drive around... its clearly setup for racing ... but it does show what a NA motor can do ... the typical Stage II motors you see in Busch Trim were 550 hp.. with a few tweaks they will eclipse 600hp ... again a lot of fun at the track.. not so much in the street.

Friend of mine let me drive it a few times since I was a 5 speed buff back in the day... letting the clutch drop @ 9200 RPM is a real trip and with 6.17's out back your in 4th gear in what seems instantly. The motor almost seems to behave like a on/off switch .. we always talked about putting that drivetrain in a lighter turbo regal and putting a 200 shot on it..

I can see 350 hp in a NA setup without a problem in street trim and totally driveable.. add a 200 squeeze and its a mid 10 second car you can drive all you want

 

[dr_frankenstein]

the NA motors can make serious power @ serious RPM ... The car I posted above is not something I could say I would drive around... its clearly setup for racing ... but it does show what a NA motor can do ... the typical Stage II motors you see in Busch Trim were 550 hp.. with a few tweaks they will eclipse 600hp ... again a lot of fun at the track.. not so much in the street.

Friend of mine let me drive it a few times since I was a 5 speed buff back in the day... letting the clutch drop @ 9200 RPM is a real trip and with 6.17's out back your in 4th gear in what seems instantly. The motor almost seems to behave like a on/off switch .. we always talked about putting that drivetrain in a lighter turbo regal and putting a 200 shot on it..

I can see 350 hp in a NA setup without a problem in street trim and totally driveable.. add a 200 squeeze and its a mid 10 second car you can drive all you want

Oh yea not a big deal if you have the pockets to support it. That the problem with this entire post. NA can make the power if your willing to spend that kind of money.. but comparable dollars in a LC2 build trumps the NA all day long. Considering the questions asked here, stage 2 is probably outside of the question unless you feel confident enough assembling your own race engine. There is nothing simple about a stage 2 when all that's left is used parts. Realistically an NA motor is best suited to a body under 2600 lbs. Anything heavier and its a pig. Simply spoken from experience. Why question boost... its what made the V6 the legend it is.... unless you have a point to prove.

 

[turbo89]

Oh yea not a big deal if you have the pockets to support it. That the problem with this entire post. NA can make the power if your willing to spend that kind of money.. but comparable dollars in a LC2 build trumps the NA all day long. Considering the questions asked here, stage 2 is probably outside of the question unless you feel confident enough assembling your own race engine. There is nothing simple about a stage 2 when all that's left is used parts. Realistically an NA motor is best suited to a body under 2600 lbs. Anything heavier and its a pig. Simply spoken from experience. Why question boost... its what made the V6 the legend it is.... unless you have a point to prove.

Why does everything on these forums have to be a pissing match..

The point of my post was just information regarding what a NA setup is capable of and how competitive it can be ...

And a 350 hp NA build with a bottle can be just as competitive as a Turbo V6... IF THATS WHAT YOUR AFTER ...

Personally I go the Turbo route .. over and over .. that's my preference.. but the OP may have reasons for doing what he wants to do..

To each their own

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Why does everything on these forums have to be a pissing match..

The point of my post was just information regarding what a NA setup is capable of and how competitive it can be ...

And a 350 hp NA build with a bottle can be just as competitive as a Turbo V6... IF THATS WHAT YOUR AFTER ...

Personally I go the Turbo route .. over and over .. that's my preference.. but the OP may have reasons for doing what he wants to do..

To each their own

Not a pissing match at all, I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I just make sure that this is a pointed out part of the decision for Futten. We have talked to this with him in the B4B section on this very subject. Futten wants bang for the buck, as low budget yet powerful as possible. Those horsepower goals aren't that easy in NA form with a small budget. Thus we want to urge him to consider a blow thru boost option to minimize cost yet produce the end goal desired without sacrificing drivability. He can assemble himself, with off the shelf parts and have it done within a reasonable amount of time. I just think its better suited for him. The couple of us that run NA have light bodies, and don't need the torque anyways so we can cam to the moon for the compression. We just don't want somebody to go down the road that's more headaches then its worth. Its alot of work, ask Fuzzy, ask Ek02... we regularly talk about the adventure. He just needs to know for sure this is really really what he wants to do, and the odds against the end goal. I wish somebody had told me.

 

[charlief1]

One other thing to consider. He's in Norway, so parts aren't easy to come by and work will cost 3 or 4 times what it would over here. Just a simple valve job can run $1K not including assembly.

 

[futten]

my boss pointed out someone selling a rover/buick 215 alu v8 if i can increase the enne to 4.5 liter i can probably get 300 hp and save 60 pounds in the process also cheaper parts then the v6 i can already hear some of you tearing the hair outa your heads

the v6 will have ported iron heads unless i can get some good stage 2 heads for a decent price i might be a head but the problem is SHIPPING and the intake thats needed yes turbo is a good easy true and tested way of making power in the v6 and cheaper because of off the shelf parts rather then custom cams and pistons so now its two bullets to bite go with the aluminum v8 and drop a stock crank with longer stroke or go with the tried and true blow through bullet one= 60 lbs lighter then v6 cheaper parts BUT its a v8 bullet 2 is doing what everyone else does and turbo it