E85 No Intercooler
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Cooling the intake air/air fuel mixture has a direct effect on the exhaust temps. Do this test and you will know another truth that no one will be able to talk you out of knowing.
I thought this was the case. Mechanical Pre turbo is the type of injection that fits the non intercooler application so well. I bring this up because you mentioned the restrictive intercooler effecting turbo efficiency. The very fact that we compress the air,effects efficiency in a negative way.If we cool the air as we compress it,it would be a helpful step towards running without a intercooler. The mechanical set-up is so perfect for pre-turb because you don't need to rely on a pump and electronics. I had nothing but bad experiences with alcohol injection. Both with the pump and electronics. Like you,I prefer shooting alcohol through my injectors,but it would also be nice to cool the intake air.
Im really not a specialist in this conversation so i hope i dont make myself sound like an ass on this board. Cooling the intake charge is what most turbocharged vehicles need to prevent detonation/knock and or Pre-ignition. That is the whole reason Intercoolers are used. But if your fuel can do this for you what is the need for the intercooler? Save weight and restriction and space. I wish i could go into detail of AFR/EGT but im not a tech and i would be talking outa my ass. Your EGT is giving you the heat that your internal combustion has released. Lean or Rich. Leaner the hotter it will be. Richer the colder it will be. Based on your tune and your AFR your EGT will read hotter or colder.
All im trying to prove is once the E85 fuel and oxygen is introduced in the cylinder before spark (in my case powerlogger proves it without I/C) the alcohol in the fuel pulls out an extreme amount of heat from the hot intake charge. OR does it cool the charge thru the burning of the alcohol??? Now im confused.
All i know is if the E85 wasnt working i would have certainly have taken my motor or HG. Can an EGT really give you an idea of the cooling it does to the intake charge prior to ignition. If i were to take rdgs of an intake charge say @ plenum then post combustion @ header port with an EGT would that give me an idea of the cooling that happened before the explosion? I would like figure out how much cooling the E85 did to the intake charge before explosion. Do i sound like an idiot? lol i feel like i need a specialist in here.
All im trying to prove is once the E85 fuel and oxygen is introduced in the cylinder before spark (in my case powerlogger proves it without I/C) the alcohol in the fuel pulls out an extreme amount of heat from the hot intake charge. OR does it cool the charge thru the burning of the alcohol??? Now im confused.
All i know is if the E85 wasnt working i would have certainly have taken my motor or HG. Can an EGT really give you an idea of the cooling it does to the intake charge prior to ignition. If i were to take rdgs of an intake charge say @ plenum then post combustion @ header port with an EGT would that give me an idea of the cooling that happened before the explosion? I would like figure out how much cooling the E85 did to the intake charge before explosion. Do i sound like an idiot? lol i feel like i need a specialist in here.
Cooling the intake charge is the ideal thing to do but when you start relying on so many things and have your tune setup on "hoping" those electronics and that pump and that line etc is all working and always working when you give it WOT worries me. The less things you have the less can go wrong. So with my alcohol based fuel i just check alcohol content and make sure Fuel pressure is there. Done
I also just did my best friends car with E85 swap he didnt want to run big injectors because he didnt want to spend a little more on Modded computer, So we went 80# with alcohol injection to help compensate so we've been playing with his on either running the alcohol injection on the charge or just running it with E85 like a 7th injector sort of speak. Like how i have tested before. He also has a big SLIC so we've just been toying with his getting it dialed in. Runs good
I often wonder about how much the day temp really matters when running alcohol. We use 100% Ethanol and whether the day temp is 50f or 100f the car seems to always run with in .2 of its times. Its very consistant. Car runs 24 deg timing through the peak of its curve, with 91 octane that would never happen. Hot days seem to kill power on pump fuel. Trouble is you cant really measure combustion temp, only EGT. I run ours around 550f and no issues. Made 580whp@ 15psi.
I tried relying on these thing and they let me down big time,so I'm right there with you. I love E85.
Of course,110 octane fuel will always allow more boost and spark advance than 91.
They are directly related.
It's alcohol,so it has a cooling effect. Another thing I like about alcohol is,because it dissipates and atomizes better,the bigger injectors that are needed,will still atomize well. With gasoline you have poorer atomization with bigger injectors.
It's not just a cooler burning fuel. It also has higher octane.
Since you're injecting into the intake port of the head,you would be doing nothing to cool the air in the plenum. However,if you injected water pre-turbo or methanol post turbo,you would be able to record the cooler temps in the plenum and see the corresponding drop in EGTs.
TT/Ameasap
The White Blur
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Your talking about running no IC. I have done this as stated in above posts. You would need to run a pipe from the turbo outlet to the TB inlet. That's what i did. The only thing it really needed to actually work was some refining of the tubing for stop and go traffic. By running E85 and alky I think this can be done In traffic and on the drag strip.
GNVYUS 1
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I've been away for a while but I had a thread in 09 just like this. I talked to a couple of GN members who experimented with this idea too but there's not that many of us out there. It's not for everyone but if you have E85 available and want a killer street setup, this is the way to go IMO.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/ditched-the-fmic-e85-pre-and-post-alky-setup-inside.288730/
But Meth Injection is really valuable on this Non Intercooled setup, Pre-Turbo Injection is only gaining you 1psi on the compressor map so it's debatable if it's worth the expense (though I have it). You're not maxing out the potential of the E85 fuel by hitting it with 350+ degrees of air, running twin M15 nozzles of Meth will get your inlet air temps in an acceptable range to where you can feel confident about running 26psi and 24 degrees while in 3rd pull after pull. I spaced the nozzles so the sprays wouldn't collide and potentially puddle in the intake since the air path is so short.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/ditched-the-fmic-e85-pre-and-post-alky-setup-inside.288730/
But Meth Injection is really valuable on this Non Intercooled setup, Pre-Turbo Injection is only gaining you 1psi on the compressor map so it's debatable if it's worth the expense (though I have it). You're not maxing out the potential of the E85 fuel by hitting it with 350+ degrees of air, running twin M15 nozzles of Meth will get your inlet air temps in an acceptable range to where you can feel confident about running 26psi and 24 degrees while in 3rd pull after pull. I spaced the nozzles so the sprays wouldn't collide and potentially puddle in the intake since the air path is so short.
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TT/Ameasap
The White Blur
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I cant imagine the boost restriction being that much. IIRC, my boost shot up 3# or so. This was back in 03 tho. back when Bruce was doing some mad scientist stuff too.
Reading this makes me smile. I too just ran a GTO that runs soild 11.90 and i smoked him with the T-type i just bought. It's a stock block, stock head, stock cam, stock I/C with 60lbs injectors on E-85 one racetronics pump...zero knock, stock lines and a BOP400 trans 3800 stall and 70mm stealth turbo with a RJC 5 inch down pipe....beat the kid by 3 plus cars. I'm pretty sure this car is in the high 10's for sure. Just gotta love the E-85. I need to take this beater to the track. It's also slow as hell off the line, the GTO had 2 cars on me before the boost came in...then it was over for there. Should have seen the look on the guys face...it was priceless
25 psi boost is where it's set and a TT chip
25 psi boost is where it's set and a TT chip
Water temp makes a huge difference i've noticed.
I've done many logs at the track and I can say that having my cooling system running at 172F down from the factory 197f drops my EGT by 100f.
If I drop my intake temp from 120f to 80f I drop 50f EGT.
So just changing my themostat dropped EGT by 100f, a bigger gain than dropping intake temp. It all adds up though.
The lower EGT I can start out with the more room I have to play
Im currantly at 550f EGT with 17psi boost and 24deg timing. Went 9.72@146mph @3300lb. E98.
I've done many logs at the track and I can say that having my cooling system running at 172F down from the factory 197f drops my EGT by 100f.
If I drop my intake temp from 120f to 80f I drop 50f EGT.
So just changing my themostat dropped EGT by 100f, a bigger gain than dropping intake temp. It all adds up though.
The lower EGT I can start out with the more room I have to play
Im currantly at 550f EGT with 17psi boost and 24deg timing. Went 9.72@146mph @3300lb. E98.
Pronto
No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.
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What's your target EGT at the end of the run?
murphinator
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I have Noticed that on series 2 3800's- when reading plugs they told me to run colder plugs in the middle which I always did
TT/Ameasap
The White Blur
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After converting to E85 withing the last month and messing around with AFR and alky.... It is hard to believe there would be any benefit to running no IC. I dont see the temps dropping by a significant amount. My car runs the same temp as 93 octane. Spool seems quicker, but dont know for sure.
I think spraying the alky on top of E85 is the way to go.
I think spraying the alky on top of E85 is the way to go.
Ethanol cools the air when it changes phase (goes from a liquid to a gas). Just like boiling water on a stove, this change in phase requires heat which comes from the heated air. When the heat is used to change the phase, the air stream gets cooler. Ethanol has a much higher heat of vaporization than does gasoline! This is exactly what happens when you inject alcohol (methanol) or water into the inlet air stream. Ethanol has the added benefit of having a high octane which certainly helps prevent detonation. Methanol even more so! Methanol is VERY corrosive!! Ethanol not so much!
Conrad
Conrad
