Electromotive TEC unit discussion

[Alky V6]

This thread was started so people could discuss the Electromotive TEC units.

I'm not here to sell units. Some people have questions and since I have some experience with these units, I thought this would be a good way to share what I know and maybe help those with questions about the units.
This will also be a good way for me to learn some things, too. Some of you have been keeping up-to-date on new devices that can interact with the TEC units that will make total management of the car a lot easier.

TEC stands for Total Engine Control.
The TEC unit is a high performance aftermarket engine control module (ECM) which includes a very good ignition system (XDi).
The two popular TEC units are the TEC GT and the TEC3r, both capable of using the new WinTEC4 software.
Rumor has it that Electromotive is working on a replacement for the TEC3r model.
The TEC3r is considered a more robust model than the TEC GT, although the TEC GT has some nice features.
Electromotive also has a stand alone ignition system (XDi system) that is popular due to it's power and accuracy.

(starting in with an existing conversation),

Yes, color persist. I personally have not used that overlay feature. It may be a good tool for someone else, though.
The VE table auto correct works just as you stated.
When the WinTEC4 software was released and then made available to be used with the TEC3r units after a hardware upgrade to the units, the auto correct feature was not available at first. Firmware and software upgrades available online has recently made that feature available again. Auto correction had been available on earlier TEC units, so it was strange to have a TEC unit that didn't have the auto correct feature. Well, finally it's back. Oh well, it's not a feature I used anyway. I have O2 correction turned off, and have always tuned this engine with it off. I do corrections manually using datalog data. I've found it has allowed me to get a tighter tuneup with the methanol.
I would download some of the earlier manual versions for the earlier model TEC units and go over them. There is a lot of information that was available in the earlier manuals, but for whatever reason, they seem to skimp on the later manuals as if everyone is upgrading from earlier units and already has the background on how these units work from experience with the earlier units and manuals.
I think you're reading too much into what everyone says about these units not being user friendly. I started out on TEC units and was able to understand it quickly. The thing I didn't understand and took me some time to learn was what an optimized fuel map for an engine looked like. It took a long time using manual correction to finally start to see how the map was shaping up, but it was worth it. It forced me to learn a lot about what this engine wanted in terms of fueling, and forced me to focus in on the different engine operating sections of a fuel map. Knowledge that I can easily carry on to another project in the future. The time I spent learning those tuning lessons was not the fault of the ECM, though.
Probably the most difficult part of the TEC system is simply setting up the base fuel curve for a new engine. That takes some math and some guess work, but that can always be adjusted as you progress with the tuning. I can help you with that, if you think you need help with it.

 

[Alky V6]

Those that have questions, but would rather PM (for obvious drama reasons), I will answer here so that the discussion can be shared with others. Especially if my responce is longer than a PM will allow.
I will do my best to keep the PM participants private.

 

[Bent6]

I wouldn't be surprised if we are the only participants on this topic. I realize this isn't the most popular system out there. Guess I'll be in your boat of going against the grain Donnie. :biggrin:

Electromotive has been around a long time - maybe even longer than the more main stream stuff out there now. I have to admit I've never paid much attention to their stuff until a couple of months ago. I've talked to several people in the loop and most agree the Electro's ignition is hard to beat. I think Electro got behind years ago as they were slow to add wide band O2 correction to their system. Add to that the fact that their software isn't the most user friendly in the world especially when comparing to FAST or BS3. Hopefully their new unit will bring them up to speed with the other stuff in the field as far as user friendliness, datalogging, and bells and whistles go.

When we were kicking around ideas for my new project the idea of dual injectors per cylinder came up. I realize this is nothing new and that plenty of systems have this feature but the way the TEC unit goes about it is what got me interested. The ignition accuracy is a bonus. The new project http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/turbo-v8-conversions/321260-twin-turbo-buick-gs-project.html will be a "street" car so driveability does factor in. Not to say you can't do it with one BIG set but the reasoning we came up with is that it would be easier to tune a smaller set of primary injectors for idle quality as well as general driveability and have a secondary row available for when the car is in power. The cool thing the TEC does is the way the dual injectors are staged - the secondary injectors will be on a completely different fuel system and won't even be used until the MAP pressure dictates. By using two entirely separate fuel cells and pumps, it could essentially be set up as octane on demand if needed.

There are two schools of thought on using O2 correction. One says don't use it for anything other than a tuning tool - the other says leave it on with limitations as it could save your engine from a freak lean out condition. Both are valid points. I have plenty of experience with WBO2 on the FAST stuff but have to wonder if the TEC makes correction as quickly when operating in closed loop?

 

[Alky V6]

Good question. I don't think it's really a matter of how quick the TEC unit reacts as it is a matter of how quick the O2 sensor itself reacts, and more importantly, when it reacts, how accurate is the reading? Or, in some situations, there are times where the O2 sensor can have a delay in reacting, such as, the sensor just after having been through an extremely rich spell. That is probably why some have come to learn, including myself, not to completely rely on the O2 reading. I've learned from some tuners that there are extremely quick O2 sensors out there, but the price is very prohibitive for the hobbiest racer.

The TEC unit does have adjustability where it comes to how quickly you can make the TEC react to the O2 readings. There can be some cases where you don't want the TEC to react too quickly to an O2 change.

 

[Alky V6]

Will, if it's not too much trouble, you should bring up the accessories that are available for use with the TEC unit. I found what you brought up very interesting.

 

[Alky V6]

Something that has recently come along that's exciting for me. The TEC3r now supports up to a 7 bar MAP sensor. Hmmm.

 

[Bent6]

Some good points on the O2 stuff. The XFI has the same feature that lets you tailor the O2 correction limits and how much it comes into play at different levels although I've never played with it much.

By accessories I assume you are talking about the PCS datalogger. It is the same company that makes the dash logger for FAST as well as the driveshaft speed sensors and other stuff the XFI uses. It can integrate with the XFI thru the CAN-BUS input while the TEC and older FAST classic use RS232. With this thing the data logging possibilites are unreal. Rate sensors, EGTs, travel sensors, etc. - it's pretty much like a Racepak. You can get a lot more resolution and detail than even the onboard XFI logger gives. It's a slick unit. I'm planning on using this in place of 80% of the gauges normally used on my new ride. Traditional tach, speedo, using the AMS 1000 or 2000 as the boost gauge and the PCS for everything else. I've downloaded the software and played with it a bit using the sample logs - it's definitely capable of providing TMI! Think of the XFI's datalogger as the basic version with the D200 being the advanced version they don't give you from the factory.

 

[Alky V6]

A stand alone traction control unit that can be used with the TEC unit?

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[HighPSI]

I'm not sure that system would work very well in a drag application. It looks like that system compares different wheel speeds to determine when the tires are spinning. If that's the case, I'm not sure how effective it is on a car that pulls the front tires. A much better system is probably the Davis Technologies unit http://www.moretraction.com/
It's a shame your engine management won't do traction control. Adding another computer just for traction control just adds more complexity to an already complicated vehicle. I prefer the KISS method, especially if you start racing competitively where the time between rounds can become an issue.

 

[Alky V6]

KISS method?

 

[JayC]

The TEC unit is pretty impressive and probably more advanced than most other units on the market. Cal is right tho, its not a racing unit and the guy who owns Electromotive doesnt give a crap about racing.

I had one of the original TEC's on my first GN. It worked great for what it was back then. I think at the time, the only people running those were me and Frank Smith.

The M&A guy's race car had a TEC II on it. I dont know how fast that car ended up going or who ended up with it after Ted sold it. Mike probably does.

 

[SGRIM]

KISS method?

Keep It Simple Stupid!

It is not meant as derogatory though...

 

[Alky V6]

The TEC unit does a very good job at what it was designed to do. Provide exceptional spark energy, accuracy and control, along with fueling.

Adding separate modules to control other racing type functions is not really a big problem for me. Just find a spot to mount the module and wire it in.
Using a separate module does give one the chance to shop for the best module that will fit the needs of the user. I would imagine that a stand alone module such as a traction control unit would be packed with many additional features and options that might not be available with a traction control feature that is packaged along with an ECU. I'm just guessing on that. I know that if I were designing a stand alone module that was able to concentrate on only one simple function, I would do my best to come up with every conceivable option for that unit. I understand the Racelogic unit alone has over 50 parameters to pick from just for traction control. That sounds very interesting to me.
I'm just getting started in looking for stand alone control modules, and to find one right off the bat with so many options is giving me hope that I will find a unit to fit my needs.

 

[Alky V6]

Keep It Simple Stupid!

It is not meant as derogatory though...

Ahh, I see. One always hopes to have one little black box that can do it all. Unfortunately, the TEC unit is doing too good of a job at the engine management side of the picture to give it up.

Besides, have I ever been known to keep anything simple? :biggrin:

 

[Alky V6]

I have recently changed from a 3 bar to a new 4 bar MAP sensor and found that it is important to go through the complete TEC calibration file to check all MAP related parameter settings. Changing the map sensor skewed all the MAP related settings.

 

[HighPSI]

KISS method?

LOL! It was pretty obvious, you didn't know what that was :biggrin: j/k

Like I posted earlier, if you want the best stand alone traction control box, the Davis unit is going to be hard to beat

 

[Alky V6]

LOL! It was pretty obvious, you don't know what that is :biggrin:

One box will never do all the things that would make me happy with it for a long enough period of time. That's why there is the stand alones market.

I'll check out that Davis box. Thanks.

 

[Alky V6]

Looks promising. Thanks, Cal.

 

[Alky V6]

It looks like the Davis TC unit is able to take advantage of the 0-5V variable timing retard of the TEC unit. That alone makes it very attractive.

 

[Bent6]

I agree the TEC isn't the most drag race friendly ECM out there but it does have some neat features that the others don't. It would be nice to have everything available in one package instead of add-on boxes. My engine "consultant" really believes in the ignition accuracy of the TEC unit being a plus as far as bearing life is concerned.

The way I look at it is this - I'll give it a try and if I absolutely hate it I'll yank it and put a FAST system in it. I don't think I'll ever go to Donnie's extreme but it is a little exciting to go against the grain sometimes. Maybe me and Donnie can actually learn some stuff from each other on the TEC unit - who would've thunk? My new car definitely ain't going to be a cookie cutter so why should the ECM? :biggrin: