Engine Nock..need ideas for high 10's,low 11's

[turbo96max]

Hello everyone I am a new owner of a 86 GN that just developed a rod nock.
Car has a pte54, v2 front mount, 3 inch piping, 42.5 lb injectors, 3500-3800 stall converter, stock tranny rebuilt with goodies to hold more power (2500 dollar rebuilt) , th downpipe, pitbull exhaust.

I need now to rebuild the engine, not by choice unfortunately. Realistically this is my daily driver, I am looking to be able to put 22-25 psi of boost , and be able to run low , possibly high 10's. I need to know what is the bare minimum rebuild that I will need for this, and will my pte54 handle those times.

I bought the car about 2 months ago and I am on a budget (as always).

I was thinking clean up the stock crank, rods. use je .20 pistons, freshen up the stock heads with new stronger springs, depending on how the cam looks, keep it or if its damaged go with a rolling assembly.?? will something like this keep it reliable at the times that I want?

 

[BlackBandit]

There's a saying. You can only pick two of the following when building a car. Cheap, Fast, Reliable.

10's on a budget is not a realistic goal for a daily driver. There's allot involved there. Mid 11's would be a bit more reasonable. If you're sure it's a rod knock you might be able to get away with just doing the bottom end. As far as a rebuild goes stock crank, rods, without billet mains or a girdle is not the best idea for 10's. Especially since, (and PLEASE don't take this as a cut) you don't seem to know allot about tuning these cars. Many have done it, but I would guess many more have tried and left Buick all over the track. If I was you I'd fix your problem, get a handle on what you have, and then go for 10's when you get the budget for it. If the carnage isn't too bad you could do the bottom end of your engine for $300-$500. Especially if you do it yourself. That's my 2 cents. james

 

[johnnyttype]

Hello everyone I am a new owner of a 86 GN that just developed a rod nock.
Car has a pte54, v2 front mount, 3 inch piping, 42.5 lb injectors, 3500-3800 stall converter, stock tranny rebuilt with goodies to hold more power (2500 dollar rebuilt) , th downpipe, pitbull exhaust.

I need now to rebuild the engine, not by choice unfortunately. Realistically this is my daily driver, I am looking to be able to put 22-25 psi of boost , and be able to run low , possibly high 10's. I need to know what is the bare minimum rebuild that I will need for this, and will my pte54 handle those times.

I bought the car about 2 months ago and I am on a budget (as always).

I was thinking clean up the stock crank, rods. use je .20 pistons, freshen up the stock heads with new stronger springs, depending on how the cam looks, keep it or if its damaged go with a rolling assembly.?? will something like this keep it reliable at the times that I want?

i just checked out precisons website and that turbo is 620hp max and mid 10's according to precision, so i dont see why not. i would rec. a main cap girdle since ur gonna use the stock crank. if ur gonna freshen the heads it would be a great time to do some porting(http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/pictureguides/heads/porting/intakeporting.html). i dont know how far you can take 42.5lb injectors, do u have upgraded fuel pump and hotwire? for daily driver i would say 60lbers and a razor alky kit would work quite nicely for ya!

i like my roller cam but they can get pricey! its up to the builder and budget really. im sure there is more im missin but others will chime in aswell! hth!

oh and of course u will need lots of traction and something like a powerlogger and wideband setup to get a good tune on the car!

 

[turbo96max]

There's a saying. You can only pick two of the following when building a car. Cheap, Fast, Reliable.

10's on a budget is not a realistic goal for a daily driver. There's allot involved there. Mid 11's would be a bit more reasonable. If you're sure it's a rod knock you might be able to get away with just doing the bottom end. As far as a rebuild goes stock crank, rods, without billet mains or a girdle is not the best idea for 10's. Especially since, (and PLEASE don't take this as a cut) you don't seem to know allot about tuning these cars. Many have done it, but I would guess many more have tried and left Buick all over the track. If I was you I'd fix your problem, get a handle on what you have, and then go for 10's when you get the budget for it. If the carnage isn't too bad you could do the bottom end of your engine for $300-$500. Especially if you do it yourself. That's my 2 cents. james

well low 11's is a more realistic time that i will be trying to reach. And I will be the first to put it out there, i am new to these cars, but will definitely be learning a lot from this site. I guess tuning on these cars is more than chips an fuel pressure , type of gas, spark plugs and gap, turbo, boost, but the tuning really is already in the chip, isnt it???. Its not like I am going to buy a aem ems system and tune it myself on the dyno. Hell I took this car to a specialist who I am finding out is not all that great. I will try Fred next.

How does the maf control the fuel as apposed to the map? how does the ecm use both? Has anyone used a safc or safc2 to try to get the fuel more onpoint , other than relying on the chip type and fp?

What do you recommend, its my daily driver. do i pull the motor out, send the crank and rods to get freshend up? can i pull the rods ou from the bottom? will i be able to put everything back in fro the bottom? can i do it on the car without pulling the motor?

tuning seems to be impossible on these thing wihout a stand alone? this car has me on the edge of a cheap sale for real. your feedback is very helpful,,lol im about to drop a 2jzgte in my 240sx and call it a day,

 

[turbo96max]

i just checked out precisons website and that turbo is 620hp max and mid 10's according to precision, so i dont see why not. i would rec. a main cap girdle since ur gonna use the stock crank. if ur gonna freshen the heads it would be a great time to do some porting(http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/pictureguides/heads/porting/intakeporting.html). i dont know how far you can take 42.5lb injectors, do u have upgraded fuel pump and hotwire? for daily driver i would say 60lbers and a razor alky kit would work quite nicely for ya!

i like my roller cam but they can get pricey! its up to the builder and budget really. im sure there is more im missin but others will chime in aswell! hth!

oh and of course u will need lots of traction and something like a powerlogger and wideband setup to get a good tune on the car!

thanks for the help,

the car has an upgraded fuel pump. not so sure what the hotwire wuld look like to identify it. i do have plenty of fuel psi right now. Can those time be run on stock internals? there a local shop that has a car running 9.90 's on stock rods, not so sure on the piston though? I will do an ijector and tt chip when the car is running again for sure and the alkycontrol kit. i had it on my maxima and methanol allowed me to run stock very advanced timing at 11 psi of boost, so i now the stuff works great. What wil the girdle do as far as strength?

 

[johnnyttype]

well low 11's is a more realistic time that i will be trying to reach. And I will be the first to put it out there, i am new to these cars, but will definitely be learning a lot from this site. I guess tuning on these cars is more than chips an fuel pressure , type of gas, spark plugs and gap, turbo, boost, but the tuning really is already in the chip, isnt it???. Its not like I am going to buy a aem ems system and tune it myself on the dyno. Hell I took this car to a specialist who I am finding out is not all that great. I will try Fred next.

How does the maf control the fuel as apposed to the map? how does the ecm use both? Has anyone used a safc or safc2 to try to get the fuel more onpoint , other than relying on the chip type and fp?

What do you recommend, its my daily driver. do i pull the motor out, send the crank and rods to get freshend up? can i pull the rods ou from the bottom? will i be able to put everything back in fro the bottom? can i do it on the car without pulling the motor?

tuning seems to be impossible on these thing wihout a stand alone? this car has me on the edge of a cheap sale for real. your feedback is very helpful,,lol im about to drop a 2jzgte in my 240sx and call it a day,

well first, i would figure out what is knocking on the car and if it is really a rod or bearing issue. could be somethin like a loose torque converter bolt or engine mount issue.

as for tuning, i personally dont see it as a daunting task. get a turbo tweak chip made to match ur combo, a wideband o2 kit for A/F tuning, and a scanmaster. the tt chip comes preset for ur combo but also can be adjusted by the user in terms of fueling and timing. alot of people dont even need to touch these settings on the chip there so good! the MAP sensor on the car does nothing more then tell the dash what to display in terms of boost!

 

[turbo96max]

well first, i would figure out what is knocking on the car and if it is really a rod or bearing issue. could be somethin like a loose torque converter bolt or engine mount issue.

as for tuning, i personally dont see it as a daunting task. get a turbo tweak chip made to match ur combo, a wideband o2 kit for A/F tuning, and a scanmaster. the tt chip comes preset for ur combo but also can be adjusted by the user in terms of fueling and timing. alot of people dont even need to touch these settings on the chip there so good! the MAP sensor on the car does nothing more then tell the dash what to display in terms of boost!

i have a scanmaster, but i have to find a link on a good how to , or something.
So do you think in your opininon that a maf based fuel controller may work on gn's? something like a safc?

I will take off the valve covers to looa at the valve train, i will also remove the oil pan hopefully the crossmember is not in the way. How can i check if the converter or a bolt is loose? The only thing i felt different was the motor was a little more sluggish cranking up, but im not sure that is related.

 

[johnnyttype]

thanks for the help,

the car has an upgraded fuel pump. not so sure what the hotwire wuld look like to identify it. i do have plenty of fuel psi right now. Can those time be run on stock internals? there a local shop that has a car running 9.90 's on stock rods, not so sure on the piston though? I will do an ijector and tt chip when the car is running again for sure and the alkycontrol kit. i had it on my maxima and methanol allowed me to run stock very advanced timing at 11 psi of boost, so i now the stuff works great. What wil the girdle do as far as strength?

check behind the rear bumper and u might find a relay and some connectors back there if it is hotwired. the kit goes from the fuel pump connector behind the bumper all the way up to the back of the alternator. people have run 11's on stock internals, the weak point is the pistons so some JE forged pistons would help out. rods and crank r pretty stout in these cars. the girdle ties all of the engines maincaps on the bottom end to eachother and the block improving strength pretty substantially. check out this for pics(FULL THROTTLE SPEED - Item Description Page)

the biggest enemy that i know of for these cars is detonation, steer clear of that and these engines will last.

to check ur converter bolts get a pry bar, big rachet with 15mm i believe, and a 10mm socket for converter cover bolts. crawl under the car and remove four 10mm bolts holding trans. inspection cover. rotate engine until u see first of 3 bolts on the torque converter. hold flexplate with pry bar and tighten the converter bolt, move to next bolt and repeat! if any r loose u found ur bottom end knock. u can prolly check oil pressure aswell to see if there is a spun bearing or problem in the bottom end before tearing it apart!

 

[BlackBandit]

As whole the Buick community has been blessed with many tuning tools. In addition to chips that allow timing and fuel adjustments for WOT performance there are several other tools such as translators and such that let us get our cars dialed in without going to aftermarket ECU's. No, tuning is not voodoo magic. There is a good bit to learn though and if you learn it on your own the lesson usually involves broken parts. There are many that say don't worry about it, but if you pay attention you'll see many of them have 10 second parts and 12 second cars. Research and reasonable goals are key.

 

[johnnyttype]

There are many that say don't worry about it, but if you pay attention you'll see many of them have 10 second parts and 12 second cars. Research and reasonable goals are key.

im only sticky tires and a converter away from my goal of reliable 11's, but the funds and school r currently holdin me back

 

[BlackBandit]

I didn't even see your sig man. I was just talking in generalities. As far as that goes though I'm sticky tires away from (hopefully reliable)mid 11's as well!

 

[johnnyttype]

I didn't even see your sig man. I was just talking in generalities. As far as that goes though I'm sticky tires away from (hopefully reliable)mid 11's as well!

and once i reach my goal, im sure it will change as the go fast bug bites me again! high 10's maybe?!

 

[turbo96max]

As whole the Buick community has been blessed with many tuning tools. In addition to chips that allow timing and fuel adjustments for WOT performance there are several other tools such as translators and such that let us get our cars dialed in without going to aftermarket ECU's. No, tuning is not voodoo magic. There is a good bit to learn though and if you learn it on your own the lesson usually involves broken parts. There are many that say don't worry about it, but if you pay attention you'll see many of them have 10 second parts and 12 second cars. Research and reasonable goals are key.

i hear that , i know plenty of cars , not just gn's that have a lot of $$ spent on still slow cars. I like going fast on a budget, thats y am doing my research. The girdle is not too expensive. The billet caps are very expensive. Can i get away with stock rods, stock crank, je piston, the block girdle, ported freshend heads, alky,and a good tune on 23 psi , with the right injectors, and stock good cam?? for my 11's ???

as far as maf translators and other things needed for tuning. Wel i guess it depends on pricing. 1500 on a stand alone, (no more maf purchasing) or add up other things , im not sure on what all the things i need will cost. I bigger maf, then the translator, how much are these things anyways? have cars gone faster on chips rather than stand alones?

 

[johnnyttype]

Can i get away with stock rods, stock crank, je piston, the block girdle, ported freshend heads, alky,and a good tune on 23 psi , with the right injectors, and stock good cam?? for my 11's ???

if u look at my signature, i have alky, tt chip, turbo, STOCK intercooler, wrong converter for my car, 21 psi and a horrible 60ft. time! easily an 11 sec combo! chips designed for 23-25psi but i think the intercooler is killing me! have not tuned chip at all since pluggin it in. not gonna tune much until i invest in a wideband. i have learned that tuning with a scanmaster and a stock narrow band o2 is only asking for trouble!

with a good tune, 1.6-1.7 60ft., an eleven shouldnt be too hard with that combo! just make sure ur fuel pump is hotwired like i said cause ur gonna be pushin alot of fuel! oh and to take full advantage of ported heads a cheap flat tappet cam with a little more lift probably wouldnt hurt ya! DONT DETONATE!

 

[turbo96max]

if u look at my signature, i have alky, tt chip, turbo, STOCK intercooler, wrong converter for my car, 21 psi and a horrible 60ft. time! easily an 11 sec combo! chips designed for 23-25psi but i think the intercooler is killing me! have not tuned chip at all since pluggin it in. not gonna tune much until i invest in a wideband. i have learned that tuning with a scanmaster and a stock narrow band o2 is only asking for trouble!

with a good tune, 1.6-1.7 60ft., an eleven shouldnt be too hard with that combo! just make sure ur fuel pump is hotwired like i said cause ur gonna be pushin alot of fuel! oh and to take full advantage of ported heads a cheap flat tappet cam with a little more lift probably wouldnt hurt ya! DONT DETONATE!

Yeah I am being told that I probably detonated and thats why i have rod nock. is that possible? if so , are these cars really that sensative to detonation? will look into the flat taped cam, do you have any part numbers?
what brands do you recommend for bearings and rings? springs? stock valves? oversized?

 

[johnnyttype]

Yeah I am being told that I probably detonated and thats why i have rod nock. is that possible? if so , are these cars really that sensative to detonation? will look into the flat taped cam, do you have any part numbers?
what brands do you recommend for bearings and rings? springs? stock valves? oversized?

yes it can cause a rod knock. everytime the car detonates, the piston encounters very high pressure spike which is sent through the piston, through the connecting rod, and then the rod essentially slams the rod bearing into rod journal on the crank causing it to wear out over time.

dont know any part #'s for the flat tappet cams but others will hopefully chime in with those!

i got my bearings from weber racing, i think they were calico bearings. ive also heard good about kings bearings or somethin like that, not very good with names! i run comp springs, but match the springs to the cam. if its a stocker a good set of 100lb springs will do just fine. if u want a budget build stock valves r the way to go. a good 3 angle valve job and 30 degree back-cut on the stockers will do!

 

[turbo96max]

yes it can cause a rod knock. everytime the car detonates, the piston encounters very high pressure spike which is sent through the piston, through the connecting rod, and then the rod essentially slams the rod bearing into rod journal on the crank causing it to wear out over time.

dont know any part #'s for the flat tappet cams but others will hopefully chime in with those!

i got my bearings from weber racing, i think they were calico bearings. ive also heard good about kings bearings or somethin like that, not very good with names! i run comp springs, but match the springs to the cam. if its a stocker a good set of 100lb springs will do just fine. if u want a budget build stock valves r the way to go. a good 3 angle valve job and 30 degree back-cut on the stockers will do!

i am on the site you referred me to , they have two cams, the 208 and the 224??? you metioned it would help, which one ? Im creating a price list, will also try to get arp bolts on the rods, and maybe on the heads, i have seen people mention 24 bolts on the head???do people machine the block and head to take more bolts? how many stock?

 

[johnnyttype]

i am on the site you referred me to , they have two cams, the 208 and the 224??? you metioned it would help, which one ? Im creating a price list, will also try to get arp bolts on the rods, and maybe on the heads, i have seen people mention 24 bolts on the head???do people machine the block and head to take more bolts? how many stock?

for a street car, definietly the 208 duration cam. but my best advice here is to call up full throttle and talk to them. they r very good with customer service and knowlegable of our cars. tell them what ur doing and they will tell u the best cam for ur combo and the supporting parts like lifters and springs aswell!

for the bolt question, stock u have 8 head bolts per cylinder head and 16 total. stage engines have 14 bolts per cyl. head with 6 bolts per cylinder! def. upgrade to the ARP head bolts!

 

[bison]

There will be nothing cheap about running the times you want and having a reliable daily driver. You will need a wideband datalogger to tune with first. The 54 will get it done, ive gone 124mph with it myself. The next item required will be methanol injection. Contact razor for a kit. Boost will need to be in the 25-26 psi range. You may need a dual nozzle kit. More injector should be used though i did it with the 42's and a lot of alcohol. Turbotweak chip for alky. A set of ported and polished heads are almost necessary if you want to run under 11.50 without running the boost in the 30 psi range. A roller cam in the 210 degree .500 lift range. Shoot for 8.5:1 comp on the rebuild. You will need a pair of tall M/T drag radials (275/60-15) which wont last long in a daily driver or slicks. HR rear bar, poly bushings in rear, some different shocks, and preferably a trans-brake for leaving at the strip. Lightweight wheels and other weight saving components will make the goal much easier. There are other variables that may effect the outcome like converter slip and tune in general. Pick a good machinist that has done these for high perf before. I just mentioned the minimum. There are many other small things needed.

 

[johnnyttype]

what were u runnin time wise with ur 54 turbo?