Expensive !@#$%^ Downpipes

[TurboTnZ06]

Port the stock elbow and get a Kirban 2 piece downpipe for cheap (under 200). I guarantee a RJC TH style pipe will drop right in and take no time to install, while a 2 piece, well, have fun with that. I had to cut the allen wrench to fit on the bottom bolt, no big deal, just takes time to seal with muffler sealer too. I've had them all, the real THDP, a RJC, a ATR, and a Kirban. I have the ATR external on my car at the moment. 400+ for a pipe is nothing these days. You can spend way more than 400 on just 2 drag radials these days which is a wear item unlike a SS DP that will last as long as the car.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

does anyone remember the old BG cast iron elbow that accepted a 2 1/2 or 3 inch pipe?

what happened to those? they seemed like a real chance for cheap downpipe?

 

[ttaowner]

pypes like was stated before is 409 ss definately not the same as 304 ss which is what most of these dp's are made from. also pypes is made in china

i also bellieve your hooker exhaust is made in mexico at least the last set of headers that i got were and that was like 15 years ago.

i have been in manufacturing and i am a machinist so if you only understood how may diffrent types of machines/ tools it takes to make this part you could appreciate why it costs what it does and like it was stated before plus the cost of materials.

i believe the ta performance and rjc downpipes are currently the only 2 being made here in the US maybe i am wrong on that but i dont think so.

 

[bison]

I'm not even talking about internal gates. I understand about the the stainless that goes into it costs more but an entire PYPES Exhaust system that is stainless steel for under $350. Still don't get it.

Go and buy a tubing bender with the large mandels for 3"and 3.5" stainless tubing, a truck load of tubing, and outsource the flange and swing valve assembly (minimum 50 of each). Now make a jig to produce these accurately
and repeatedly. Do you work for free? Maybe,I know I don't though. There is nothing easy about making one of these. The amount of work required to make one nice one that fits is extreme. A top notch fabricator will be working for $75-100/hr. A pypes ex system is mass produced. They probably run a couple hundred of them in a row. They are likely done with some type of Cnc tubing bender/cutter. Which is also used to make 50 other ex parts. Mass production requires a setup. Once the setup and program is done repeating it is very easy for an operator with little to no fabrication skills at all. They can easily keep up with the demand. A high quality 304 stainless dp like a real TH or a really good copy of one is niche market item. No one in their right mind would mass produce them. The cost to do it would be extreme and to get back any of it would take almost forever. The market is shrinking rapidly. Most of the top notch parts you see out there are produced by guys that have a day job and some decent fabrication skills. Its not their lively hood. They are doing it because of the passion for these cars. A great example is spoolfool's rear bumper filler. Notice the word filler. No s. It's as close to perfect as one could get. Even the out of the box appearance of this item is better than any seamed abs or aftermarket 2 piece fiberglass crap that's out there and can easily be bolted onto a black car with zero painting required. A tremendous amount of time was spent to develop that filler. The price he sells them for is incredibly low compared to what it took to bring them to the market. Look at the price difference between 409 and 304 stainless. Ouch.

 

[bison]

does anyone remember the old BG cast iron elbow that accepted a 2 1/2 or 3 inch pipe?

what happened to those? they seemed like a real chance for cheap downpipe?

Lmk when you want to drop $10k and I'll tell you where to go. You can be into those for about $50ea for a minimum of 200. If you wanted 1000 it would likely drop to around $20ea. Back when those were marketed the market was strong and growing. Now it's weak and dying. If you had 200 made they would sit and collect dust. Trying to get the $10k back would be a struggle. Wouldn't be a good business move. I can think of hundreds of other things I could do with $10k and have it produce a substantial return.

 

[KEVINS]

Kevins,
with all due respect to you and your ability to do this yourself how many hours did you have in thas project? How much did the tools cost? How many cutting tools would you use up in the process and how much was that cost? What was the REAL total cost for you to do that? There is also a HUGE difference in me selling a pipe made from a bunch of bends welded together (no matter how nice) compared to paying a CNC mandral bender to bend one piece pipes, get a cost on having one of those done at a time and these pipes will look like a bargain. Not to mention the bad mouthing and complaints we would get about selling a pipe that is a made that way. This is a tough crowd to please. Quanity is the only way and this market is shrinking making 100 of many items to get the cost down is no longer an option you will have your money ties up for a year plus, small production runs drive the cost up. By the time a vendor has a flange cut from stainless, a pipe bent, the hardware to make the wastegate flapper machined from high grade metal, get a welding fixture made, pay a fabricator to fit it up and weld it up, pay for our welding consumables, payroll tax, unemployment tax, test fit it on something, buy a box and packing, pay someone to box it up take the order and process it, trust me no one is getting rich. We have not even talked about rent for a building or utility bills but if you don't look at that you won't be in business long. If you don't believe me then please show me a better way and I will be happy to do it and save everyone some money. Hopefully this will help you understand. Maybe someone should ask Pypes if they want to make downpipes and see what the prices would be?
Mike

No need to explain to me. I work in Engineering and Product Development, I fully understand what things “really” cost.
Tools to make mine? One hack saw, two drill bits, one welder, one torch, one die grinder, one grinding bit… I think that’s about it. Remember mine was mild steel and most of the parts were readily available off the shelf, flanges, pipe, bushings, etc. I had about 15 hours into it complete. My post was to note that a do-it-yourselfer could do a mild steel unit cheap if they tried.

There are always ways to cut cost. Will it affect the end product? Maybe/Possibly. Does it mean that everyone will refuse to buy? I doubt it.

Knock the price down on DP’s and corner the market b/c they are less expensive then you’ll sell more. Then you’ll get a better discount on material and parts b/c you have larger qty’s being made…. Simple.. only in theory tho…

How much would it cost to make some out of purchased bends if they are available? If this way was cheaper I bet there are some people that would be glad to save some $$ even if they weren’t a one piece design… I know I would have. Hell, I would have been glad to buy a mild steel one. I made mine as a 2-piece pipe so I can separate the top portion from the lower portion and personally, I would have paid for a 2-piece pipe over a one piece pipe. But in reality, I doubt a multi piece SS would be cheaper than a single bend pipe but I don’t know how much you’re cost is for bending. My guess is that the cost is in the material, not labor. The cost of SS has gone up tremendously over the year b/c nickel has really gone up.

Regards
ks

 

[usetaboost]

If the dp was a hard 400 bucks to spend, why not get a used one or port the stock elbow for now? I waited a long time to geta thdp. If you're patient you can a dp cheap. I paid 200 shipped for my ceramic coated thdp. Had a few scuffs on the bottom and a dent the size of a quarter from the a-arm.

 

[bison]

No need to explain to me. I work in Engineering and Product Development, I fully understand what things “really” cost.
Tools to make mine? One hack saw, two drill bits, one welder, one torch, one die grinder, one grinding bit… I think that’s about it. Remember mine was mild steel and most of the parts were readily available off the shelf, flanges, pipe, bushings, etc. I had about 15 hours into it complete. My post was to note that a do-it-yourselfer could do a mild steel unit cheap if they tried.
There are always ways to cut cost. Will it affect the end product? Maybe/Possibly. Does it mean that everyone will refuse to buy? I doubt it.
Knock the price down on DP’s and corner the market b/c they are less expensive then you’ll sell more. Then you’ll get a better discount on material and parts b/c you have larger qty’s being made…. Simple.. only in theory tho…
How much would it cost to make some out of purchased bends if they are available? If this way was cheaper I bet there are some people that would be glad to save some $$ even if they weren’t a one piece design… I know I would have. Hell, I would have been glad to buy a mild steel one. I made mine as a 2-piece pipe so I can separate the top portion from the lower portion and personally, I would have paid for a 2-piece pipe over a one piece pipe. But in reality, I doubt a multi piece SS would be cheaper than a single bend pipe but I don’t know how much you’re cost is for bending. My guess is that the cost is in the material, not labor. The cost of SS has gone up tremendously over the year b/c nickel has really gone up.
Regardsks

To me today that's a $1300 pipe with my time in it. If it was 304 it would have been another $100 easily. 15 hours. That's some patience. I'd spend a lot more than $500 without even giving it much thought if something like that was going to take me 15hrs to do and not even be as good as what I was buying ready to bolt in.

 

[KEVINS]

To me today that's a $1300 pipe with my time in it. If it was 304 it would have been another $100 easily. 15 hours. That's some patience. I'd spend a lot more than $500 without even giving it much thought if something like that was going to take me 15hrs to do and not even be as good as what I was buying ready to bolt in.

The time I posted included a few nights of design time with a pair of scissors and some cardboard.
Wow, where do I sign up to get paid to work on my own car? Back then I would rather save the $$ and build what I could, besides I thought we worked on our cars for the fun of it..

ks

 

[charlief1]

The time I posted included a few nights of design time with a pair of scissors and some cardboard.
Wow, where do I sign up to get paid to work on my own car? Back then I would rather save the $$ and build what I could, besides I thought we worked on our cars for the fun of it..

ks

What a lot of guys don't realize is that once you learn how to do something you can market it so you can get paid to work on someone elses car. I do a lot of my own work because I'm cheap, and admit it. I also like to do the work which is a plus.

 

[KEVINS]

What a lot of guys don't realize is that once you learn how to do something you can market it so you can get paid to work on someone elses car. I do a lot of my own work because I'm cheap, and admit it. I also like to do the work which is a plus.

LOL, Exactly!

ks

 

[usetaboost]

It's kind of like doing work on your own vehicles. Most of the time it is worth it to do it yourself. Sometimes though it's just easier to pay someone a few hundred bucks to do it cuz it isn't worth the hassle. Kind of like how I paid someone to form and weld new patches for my quarter panel and pulled and pounded the rest of the dents myself.

 

[KEVINS]

Yea, some things I'll do myself but with others I'll be glaaaaad to pay someone else to do it..

If people want to save money then they should get creative.. Buying the equipment to do a project means that that they'll have the equipment to do the next project themselves..

ks

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Lmk when you want to drop $10k and I'll tell you where to go. You can be into those for about $50ea for a minimum of 200. If you wanted 1000 it would likely drop to around $20ea. Back when those were marketed the market was strong and growing. Now it's weak and dying. If you had 200 made they would sit and collect dust. Trying to get the $10k back would be a struggle. Wouldn't be a good business move. I can think of hundreds of other things I could do with $10k and have it produce a substantial return.

lol...... so in other words, they were a flop?

 

[broke]

I bought an RJC 3 inch downpipe, it was a bit pricey and worth every penny. No regrets on anything i have bought from vendors on this site. The informati0n alone provided by this site which is support by the vendors is priceless. Trial and error is very expensive. If questions need answers they can be found here. The archives,search function,and all of the people who have been there and done that can be looked at as a huge rebate for supporting those that support this site. Thats how i see it anyway. I am odd however cuz i think a v-6 regal is cool.

 

[bison]

The time I posted included a few nights of design time with a pair of scissors and some cardboard.
Wow, where do I sign up to get paid to work on my own car? Back then I would rather save the $$ and build what I could, besides I thought we worked on our cars for the fun of it..

ks

This is true. I prefer leave some things to pros though. Fabricating for the most part. Exhaust systems which require a bunch of weird bends or roll cage that needs to meet an NHRA spec ill leave to a pro.

 

[bison]

lol...... so in other words, they were a flop?

I doubt it. I knew at least 5 people that had them circa 1996. Way before these forums. For the 5 I knew there was probably another 500 across the country. Times are different now. The market is dying and most that have modified their cars or ever will already replaced their stock setup with something aftermarket already. Trying to market something like that today would likely be a flop.

 

[DaRonne Edwards]

I doubt it. I knew at least 5 people that had them circa 1996. Way before these forums. For the 5 I knew there was probably another 500 across the country. Times are different now. The market is dying and most that have modified their cars or ever will already replaced their stock setup with something aftermarket already. Trying to market something like that today would likely be a flop.

I think it depends on the cost of the item which will determine whether it be a flop or not. All 3 inch down pipes I see from vendors are basicly around the same price. Remember we have mambers on that have purchased old beat up downpipes for 300 bucks or more. So if one our vendors were to drop the price maybe 50-100 bucks, they won't be able to keep them in stock. But then again what do I know. I just thinking out loud.

 

[Nick Micale]

I know I am a grouchy old fart, but when "whinney" brats, usually younger than the GN they just purchased, come on our board and complain "its just a pipe" pisses me off, and hope I NEVER have any contact or experience with the likes of them.

No one "forced" them to buy a GN, and if they cannot afford one - you know that answer.

They have no passion or appreciation for a turbo Buick, and hope they sell the GN go back with their "ricer" crowd.

Like a few others, I share my experiences and assistance here, on the phone and in person to the owners who love their cars, and are appreciative in all aspects of owning and working on their pride and joy.

Fortunately only a few of these un-appreciative type owners are here, and usually not for long.

How many vendors, experienced tech people, and others no longer post here because of stupid crap from some know-it-all, or some rude ass-clown trying to make his mark?

Some people in this thread tried to give a civil answer to a subject that should have not even been posted, and should not have been answered either.

If the OP takes this personally, you should because it demonstrates how immature you are.

It is hard to maintain a professional and technical atmosphere and some class with continued crap like this.

I take my turbo Buicks serious, but I also enjoy and have fun with them, as well as with MANY other owners, and hope to continue even though the cars and good owners are getting hard to find.

 

[coach]

Wow...this poor kid has "Angered the Gods" ( Nick...Bison...Charlie)
People do not understand what it takes to make anything. All they see is the finished product. A slightly twisted 4 foot piece of tubing with a flange on it. "That couldnt possibly cost more then $150 in materials."...is exactly what they are thinking. They dont get the chance to see the R&D...the making of the blueprint...the jig and fixture...the cutting of the flange...the machining of the puck hinge...the welding......therefore it must have never exsisted. I build small connector molds for GM, FORD, HONDA, TOYOTA, DODGE. When we have a tour of our facility and their own sales people come through...they dont have a clue of what it takes to make the finished product. The engineers do...the designers do...the concept artists do. Its a sight unseen world. Its just a piece of pipe...no work went into it.

Hey kid...I have a RJC 3 inch that is Jet Hot coated...wideband bung installed. $425 right now. It was new in May, and has about 700 miles on it. This is no joke. I havent posted yet...I'll give you first crack.