Fay's 2 Watts Link

[0-60n4]

http://fays2.net/

I finally got around to installed my Watts link rear suspension from Fay's 2. I have not had a chance to really hammer on it but then I don't have much to compare to, before and after. The car does seem to corner more flat. But I changed a lot of front end steering stuff at the same time.

The quality is top notch and very well build. I'm sure it has to make a big improvement.

here's a couple pics.

 

[pacecarta]

????? why you have a triangulated 4 link ,
i dont see any reason for a watts as those are for torgue arm applications that dont use upper control arms and then the watts simply replaces the function of the panhard bar
bolting one a buick unless its equipped with a gnx setup is a waste

 

[novaderrik]

seems like a recipe for binding: it feels flatter in the corners because the suspension can't move.. the angled upper arms take care of the side to side locating of the axle, and now the watts link is trying to locate it with different leverage points.. does the suspension droop as far without the watts link hooked up as it does without it hooked up? if not, it's bound up.. hell, some say that just putting poly bushings in the upper arms binds things up..

now if you converted over to a torque arm or 3 link setup, then the watts link would be a good idea..

 

[greeneyegi]

at the least, it looks to be a good cross mount @ the frame?Stiffen up the frame a bit?

 

[ALBERTAN]

Hmmmm. Some misinformation here from people that usually put me in my place. I talked to Mark Savitske at length recently about implementing a Watts Link in my pro-touring build, as he is the one who got Jim Fay to make one for our cars. I will 100% be using one. Here's why...

Both the Watts link and our triangulated four link will try to keep the rear axle centered...the Watts link will do a much better job. The Watts link will also allow you to move the roll center (which is high in four-link setups) down slightly. The secret to using a Watts link is to use rubber bushings in the axle housing to make the four link system more compliant. This lets the Watts link do a superior job at lateral axle location without fighting the inferior four link setup. You want to talk about binding, look at our four link setup on it's own. It's supposed to ideally allow a complete range of motion without binding and simultaneously keep the rear end perfectly centered under the car. Guess what? It's kinematically impossible with a triangulated four link.

Anyways, I just thought I would add that information for anyone else that comes along later. There are a couple of other guys on this board with a Watts link, and several on other boards. To the best of my knowledge, all are very happy with the addition of the unit to their suspension. The big drawback is exhaust routing, as evidenced by the OP's photos.

 

[charlief1]

The secret to using a Watts link is to use rubber bushings in the axle housing to make the four link system more compliant.

Mark may have said this Dean, but it's 100% BS. With a watts link it does in fact keep the rear centered better, but this allows you to use spherical bushings/bearings, rather than rubber. Rubber is the cause of the binding of a 4 link because the geometry of 4 bars that don't articulate in the same plane of motion. The use of soft rubber bushings allows for some give in a stock 4 link, but also creates bind when launching or taking a turn. at higher than normal speeds. By adding a watts link only you can, in fact, create more binding issues because the rear can't move as easily to compensate for the lack of movement that the stock suspension needs to do it's job. By adding a bearing type replacement for the bushings, it allows the watts link to do it's job better. If you look up UNGN on the board, He's got a watts link on his car because he runs the Texas flying mile every year, and before the link, the rear would slide side to side and one time cause a tire to let go in a corner at high speed. The vid he posted was scary but kinda funny with the sounds you hear.

 

[ALBERTAN]

I need to chew on this for awhile. I understand rubber without a Watts link would allow more binding. I have to get my head around what it does with the Watts better I guess. We may be on the same page though because while I plan on using Mark's stuff for the front end, right now I plan on using DSE or SpeedTech's rear control arms with the SwivelLink/Articulink "technology" rather than the Currie stuff in Mark's kits.

I haven't seen UNGN around here in years. I'll definitely see if I can find the video. If you have any other tips, feel free to PM me. With the red Limited gone and the white one going soon too, it's time to stop planning this build and start ordering parts.

 

[novaderrik]

of course it's going to be more stable and corner flatter: everything is fighting everything else. things might get interesting if you are driving at 10/10 around a corner and hit some big bumps.. if a triangulated 4 link and watts link was the way to go, you'd see that combination on high end race cars and on more production cars with a solid axle..

but you don't see that: you see a panhard or watts to locate the axle laterally and either a parallel 4 link (like later Crown vics), a single upper link ('05 -'14 Mustangs) or torque arm (82-02 F bodies, GNX) in addition to the lower control arms to control fore/aft movement and housing rotation.

it would be easy enough to check for binding: put the car on jackstands under the frame, remove the rear springs and sway bar, and then try moving each end of the housing up and down independently of the other side..

 

[charlief1]

I need to chew on this for awhile. I understand rubber without a Watts link would allow more binding. I have to get my head around what it does with the Watts better I guess. We may be on the same page though because while I plan on using Mark's stuff for the front end, right now I plan on using DSE or SpeedTech's rear control arms with the SwivelLink/Articulink "technology" rather than the Currie stuff in Mark's kits.

I haven't seen UNGN around here in years. I'll definitely see if I can find the video. If you have any other tips, feel free to PM me. With the red Limited gone and the white one going soon too, it's time to stop planning this build and start ordering parts.

You don't even have to go with the DSE parts Dean. You can get replacement spherical bushings for the arms from speedway if you choose to use stock arms. The bearing/bushing assembly takes the place of the stock rubber one, then get the same for the axle, but I don't remember who makes them off the top of my head.

UNGN popped in yesterday which is why I brought him up. Check youtube for some of his vids. Try looking for the flying Texas mile or his name, but it may take a while to find the vids.

but you don't see that: you see a panhard or watts to locate the axle laterally and either a parallel 4 link (like later Crown vics), a single upper link ('05 -'14 Mustangs) or torque arm (82-02 F bodies, GNX) in addition to the lower control arms to control fore/aft movement and housing rotation.

You forgot the H body GM chassis that GM tried the torque arm set up first on Derrik. I cut my teeth on them trying to make one handle well enough to run SCCA super street modified.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Spohn has complete arm sets w/ the spherical ends. You can also buy just the parts, and make your own bars.
I have the complete set on my 86LS project. NICE pieces!

http://www.spohn.net/shop/1978-1987-GM-G-Body/Suspension/Rear-Lower-Control-Arms/

 

[scot w.]

Nice points being made here and some very true! The spherical rod ends are not the "End all be all" for articulation either... Speaking from experience and seeing first hand what happens on an auto-cross with a customers car who had the curie track rear set up. There is still not enough articulation and lifts the inside rear tire of the car on hard cornering (I even have pictures of it happening). The customer has now done a bunch of changes to his car and recently went with another aftermarket rear suspension (still using the spherical ends to due further testing) and if the car still does it then he will be going with the DSE uppers & lowers like I had on my white car which btw didn't have a watts link and the rear end NEVER moved laterally and I Never had a tire lift on cornering, yet I still put up faster lap times. I seen first hand at the DSE facility the articulation difference between what I had previously on my car and the DSE uppers & lowers and it was Amazing! I was told speedtech just copied DSE arms so they are the same and should work the same.....

Proof that a suspension works properly is putting it to the test on a course and pushing it hard, not street driving or a little Spirited street driving cause you just can't replicate it on the street. Ask (Hot Air- Conrad) or (TurboDave) how my car handled on the course, they both rode in my car as I pushed it to the max...

 

[T-CHRGD]

http://fays2.net/

I finally got around to installed my Watts link rear suspension from Fay's 2. I have not had a chance to really hammer on it but then I don't have much to compare to, before and after. The car does seem to corner more flat. But I changed a lot of front end steering stuff at the same time.

The quality is top notch and very well build. I'm sure it has to make a big improvement.

here's a couple pics.

Welcome to the watts link shit fest. Now just go out and have fun driving it (and you Will ! )

 

[0-60n4]

Thanks. I was feeling pretty bummed out, thinking I had completely wasted my time and money and maybe even worse, done something harmful or dangerous. I admit I don't know much about suspensions on these cars. The information I read on Fay's 2 website about their 2-way Watts link on the Regal sold me. the design doesn't look like it would fight the existing suspension parts but I don't know. Sounds like the verdict is still out. So I'll dive it a while and see what I can determine about it. And in the mean time, I'll keep reading what you guys post about it.

Thanks,.

Jim

 

[T-CHRGD]

Thanks. I was feeling pretty bummed out, thinking I had completely wasted my time and money and maybe even worse, done something harmful or dangerous. Sounds like the verdict is still out.

Jim

The verdict is not out for those of us who actually run one. It does Not increase binding throughout the range of suspension travel. It establishes a predictable roll center and eliminates snap over-steer. It makes the car easier to drive hard, so that you feel like you are going slower, but you are Not. Check out some of the Ford Mustang forums for more positive feedback on the results of adding a watts link from those who have actually done it with great results.

 

[ALBERTAN]

What bushings are you running at each location in your Currie control arms out back John?

 

[ALBERTAN]

Spohn has complete arm sets w/ the spherical ends. You can also buy just the parts, and make your own bars.
I have the complete set on my 86LS project. NICE pieces!

http://www.spohn.net/shop/1978-1987-GM-G-Body/Suspension/Rear-Lower-Control-Arms/

What was it you went with Chuck? Del-Sphere or spherical/poly? I like the Del-spheres better on paper. Thanks.

 

[ALBERTAN]

Speaking from experience and seeing first hand what happens on an auto-cross with a customers car who had the curie track rear set up. There is still not enough articulation and lifts the inside rear tire of the car on hard cornering (I even have pictures of it happening). The customer has now done a bunch of changes to his car and recently went with another aftermarket rear suspension (still using the spherical ends to due further testing) and if the car still does it then he will be going with the DSE uppers & lowers like I had on my white car

I'm going to call DSE tomorrow to talk to them about their Swivel-Link solution and see how it compares to Spohn's Del-Sphere. Do you know what the how much articulation the Swivel-Links allow? I think heim joints are typically around 25 degrees. It may be a moot point anyways, as I'm building a street/track car, not a Jeep for the Rubicon...

which btw didn't have a watts link and the rear end NEVER moved laterally and I Never had a tire lift on cornering, yet I still put up faster lap times. I seen first hand at the DSE facility the articulation difference between what I had previously on my car and the DSE uppers & lowers and it was Amazing! I was told speedtech just copied DSE arms so they are the same and should work the same.....

How do you know it never moved? How do you know it wouldn't have been even better with a Watts link? Not trying to pick a fight. Just trying to learn from those with more knowledge before I buy my parts.

 

[scot w.]

I'm going to call DSE tomorrow to talk to them about their Swivel-Link solution and see how it compares to Spohn's Del-Sphere. Do you know what the how much articulation the Swivel-Links allow? I think heim joints are typically around 25 degrees. It may be a moot point anyways, as I'm building a street/track car, not a Jeep for the Rubicon...



How do you know it never moved? How do you know it wouldn't have been even better with a Watts link? Not trying to pick a fight. Just trying to learn from those with more knowledge before I buy my parts.

When you call them ask for Dan Oddy he will help you out with anything you want to know....
I know for a fact it never moved laterally because I only had 1/16" to Maybe an 1/8" between the inside of my rear tires and the frame, If the rear end moved laterally there would have definitely been tire rub marks on the frame from all the auto-crossing we have done with the car the last 6yrs, there was none anywhere and still to this day None!

If you decide to go this route let us know, we will save you the shipping costs....

 

[ALBERTAN]

Thanks Scot. That makes sense. I'll definitely be ordering my DSE stuff from you guys.

 

[T-CHRGD]

What bushings are you running at each location in your Currie control arms out back John?

The Currie arms have Johnny Joints on the frame side with 30 degree articulation in all directions. The lowers have urethane bushings on the rear, and I run the factory rubber in the rear end housing.