Front RT tire Rub? Left one don't?

[scot w.]

I have seen the passenger side tire only rub on more than one car and have seen several people post about this problem. Well today while getting ready to do the front brake install I wanted to get sort of a reference as to where the wheel mating surfaces were on the stock set up before doing the install, that way once I was done I could due this test again and it will tell me exactly how much the BAER track-4/SS4 system pushed my wheels outward. Once I seen the outcome of these measurements I felt this information needed to be posted for the members..

I done a simple test By using a plum bob tapped to the outer fender (centered to the hub) to see how well the wheel mating surfaces were aligned to the outer wheel well trim. To make sure the plum bob was always in the same spot on all corners I measured the rears off the tail light housings over to the string and on the front I measured from the door/fender seam over to the string and here is what I found...

The front LEFT: (Measured at 7-1/16")

The front RIGHT: (Measured at 6-1/2") The measurement is LESS because it is More towards the outside by 1/2" than on the LEFT side.. This explains the passenger tire rub on MANY cars!! We are going to try to see if we can find out the reason why this is like this on so many cars, then we will try a few things to correct it....

Now we can go onto the rear of the car and see what we have..

Now onto the REAR measurements:

Rear left: Measured at 7-1/4" (bad angle, hard to due with only two hands)

RT rear: Measured at 7-1/4" (Better angle this time LOL)

And here is what the set up looks like and how I measured it for each side:

Front LEFT:

Rear:

 

[Dynalow00]

Mine suffers from this problem. Actually, it wasn't a problem until I lowered the car. Now the right front tire rubs when I go over bumps and dips. I haven't done a plumb bob measurement, but I eyeballed it, and it's definitely off from side to side. I do know that the car was in some sort of front end collision prior to me owning it. I have not had the frame measured for square to be sure it isn't bent, but I plan to in the future. I am interested to see what you find out about this... -Steve

 

[motorhead]

This is the reason why I have a 1/8" spacer behind my left front wheel... and why I kept cutting tires on the right side (my Monte Carlo is even worse for visual offset). That and I was down -1* of camber on that side until this past weekend.

Body by Fisher (built with a hammer, anvil and an ox)...

 

[KevinB]

Unbolt body from the frame and move it. Scot you should do poly body bushings on your road race machine anyways. Just did mine....I bet there is enough adjustment to get that 1/2" back.

 

[HelloBozos]

I have seen the passenger side tire only rub on more than one car and have seen several people post about this problem. Well today while getting ready to do the front brake install I wanted to get sort of a reference as to where the wheel mating surfaces were on the stock set up before doing the install, that way once I was done I could due this test again and it will tell me exactly how much the BAER track-4/SS4 system pushed my wheels outward. Once I seen the outcome of these measurements I felt this information needed to be posted for the members..

I done a simple test By using a plum bob tapped to the outer fender (centered to the hub) to see how well the wheel mating surfaces were aligned to the outer wheel well trim. To make sure the plum bob was always in the same spot on all corners I measured the rears off the tail light housings over to the string and on the front I measured from the door/fender seam over to the string and here is what I found...

The front LEFT: (Measured at 7-1/16")

The front RIGHT: (Measured at 6-1/2") The measurement is LESS because it is More towards the outside by 1/2" than on the LEFT side.. This explains the passenger tire rub on MANY cars!! We are going to try to see if we can find out the reason why this is like this on so many cars, then we will try a few things to correct it....

Now we can go onto the rear of the car and see what we have..

Now onto the REAR measurements:

Rear left: Measured at 7-1/4" (bad angle, hard to due with only two hands)

RT rear: Measured at 7-1/4" (Better angle this time LOL)

And here is what the set up looks like and how I measured it for each side:

Front LEFT:

Rear:

I just went through all this.....It's Two things with new Third you add!! One. All Gn's suspenions are pre-loaded from the factory. The A-Arm mounts on the Passanger side sits out to the fender more then the drivers side(roughly 1/4 inch). This was done to allow more room for Turbo an downpipe from factory.With skinny tires in the front,it's not noticiable!! Second. If you have origianl frame bushing's,Check the movement over the years in the Core Support bushings( Front Clip)over time or if you'ver been in any front end accident,the front clip can move 1/2" to either side. Third, Front A-Arm Swaps an/or disk break set-ups, will set your wheel out to the fender a Inch on both side's,an drop the car about an inch in the front. When your tring to fit largest wheel tire you can in the front, These 3 things i mentioned above will Messs with You Bad!!!

Enjoy!

 

[HelloBozos]

This is the reason why I have a 1/8" spacer behind my left front wheel... and why I kept cutting tires on the right side (my Monte Carlo is even worse for visual offset). That and I was down -1* of camber on that side until this past weekend.

Body by Fisher (built with a hammer, anvil and an ox)...

I had 1/4 inch spacer,By useing one though, you through your suspenion geometery off. Your car will Follow dump-truck indentations in the road bad,an you'll constantly have to have a hand on the wheel becuase the pull

Enjoy!

 

[motorhead]

I had 1/4 inch spacer,By useing one though, you through your suspenion geometery off. Your car will Follow dump-truck indentations in the road bad,an you'll constantly have to have a hand on the wheel becuase the pull

Enjoy!

Um, no. That is where you are wrong. When I did my alignment this past weekend it was with the spacer in place. And seeing as how I aligned the front wheels in a direct relationship to the rear wheels the additional track width was taken into account. But, thanks for your concern.

And why would anyone ever take both hands off the steering wheel?

 

[motorhead]

Double post!

 

[scot w.]

I just went through all this.....It's Two things with new Third you add!! One. All Gn's suspenions are pre-loaded from the factory. The A-Arm mounts on the Passanger side sits out to the fender more then the drivers side(roughly 1/4 inch). This was done to allow more room for Turbo an downpipe from factory.With skinny tires in the front,it's not noticiable!! Second. If you have origianl frame bushing's,Check the movement over the years in the Core Support bushings( Front Clip)over time or if you'ver been in any front end accident,the front clip can move 1/2" to either side. Third, Front A-Arm Swaps an/or disk break set-ups, will set your wheel out to the fender a Inch on both side's,an drop the car about an inch in the front. When your tring to fit largest wheel tire you can in the front, These 3 things i mentioned above will Messs with You Bad!!!

Enjoy!

Thanks for posting your thoughts!

I'm not too sure I believe the story about the added room for the downpipe & turbo. Reason is, I have seen friends take a regular regal (not meant for turbo or down pipe) taken and made into a turbo regal Plus Monte Carlo's also have the same issue how do you explain that?

I don't believe that GM was stupid and off this much in their geometry on the front end of these cars.

However, I DO believe like Kevin B. posted it's more likely the body on the frame that has shifted over time OR was set wrong from the beginning at the factory and that is what I will address first to see where that gets me.

Car has never been in any accidents!

You are correct and I am well aware of aftermarket brakes pushing the wheel outwards and can even tell you that BAER say's they push the front out .400 and .300 in the rear.. BUT these measurements taken were using STOCK BRAKES!

Just to let you know this wheel offset was visually noticeable and the first person to notice it on my car was (TurboDave) about two years ago when I had the GTA wheels on And that was with the STOCK A-ARMS too!! So this issue seems to have nothing to do with Any aftermarket parts or Any accidents.


Good post Bozo! (no pun intended, it's just your screen name) LOL


Scot W.

 

[HelloBozos]

Um, no. That is where you are wrong. When I did my alignment this past weekend it was with the spacer in place. And seeing as how I aligned the front wheels in a direct relationship to the rear wheels the additional track width was taken into account. But, thanks for your concern.

And why would anyone ever take both hands off the steering wheel?

A car with spacers only on one side on the front Suspenion "Will" make your car pull on a un-even surfrace,not matter what alignment you put on it,That alignment shop should of told you this,your travel distance is differant an not "True"

Enjoy!

(ps, i'm a smoker,so it's hands off knee on sometimes...8^)...)

 

[scot w.]

Unbolt body from the frame and move it. Scot you should do poly body bushings on your road race machine anyways. Just did mine....I bet there is enough adjustment to get that 1/2" back.

Bingo! This was going to be our first line of attack. We are going to remove all of the body bolts and try to shift the whole body over a 1/4". This should equal the measurements out from side to side. When your talking only a 1/4" it seems very possible that GM could have set these bodies off a tad or it just shifted that much over time....

Can you link us to the kit you used?


Thanks!
Scot W.

 

[HelloBozos]

Thanks for posting your thoughts!

I'm not too sure I believe the story about the added room for the downpipe & turbo. Reason is, I have seen friends take a regular regal (not meant for turbo or down pipe) taken and made into a turbo regal Plus Monte Carlo's also have the same issue how do you explain that?

I don't believe that GM was stupid and off this much in their geometry on the front end of these cars.

However, I DO believe like Kevin B. posted it's more likely the body on the frame that has shifted over time OR was set wrong from the beginning at the factory and that is what I will address first to see where that gets me.

Car has never been in any accidents!

You are correct and I am well aware of aftermarket brakes pushing the wheel outwards and can even tell you that BAER say's they push the front out .400 and .300 in the rear.. BUT these measurements taken were using STOCK BRAKES!

Just to let you know this wheel offset was visually noticeable and the first person to notice it on my car was (TurboDave) about two years ago when I had the GTA wheels on And that was with the STOCK A-ARMS too!! So this issue seems to have nothing to do with Any aftermarket parts or Any accidents.


Good post Bozo! (no pun intended, it's just your screen name) LOL


Scot W.[/QUOTE
It's a nasty combination to over come,everything will add up, but it's possiable to over come,I just put my atr rate springs back in the front,did some "GNX" fender clearancing, I have No Rub!...8^) with 255/40/18's in front ,still stock body bushings,no wheel spacers,with 1" drop from the BMR a-arm swap an the inch out to the fender with aerospace brake kit.Now i'm working on the back to even the stance out,added the ebich 1" drop spring back to the back an getting new bilisteins today, (mine are 20+ years old)

i'll have new photo's end the week

Enjoy!!

 

[motorhead]

A car with spacers only on one side on the front Suspenion "Will" make your car pull on a un-even surfrace,not matter what alignment you put on it,That alignment shop should of told you this,your travel distance is differant an not "True"

Enjoy!

(ps, i'm a smoker,so it's hands off knee on sometimes...8^)...)

Then by your logic my car should probably be in a ditch right now. I say this because I have 3 wheel spacers on my car right now, of 3 different thicknesses no less! Also, I am my alignment shop; and I have talked that one to death as to why. So I am not going to revisit it here.

In the realm of all things 1980's production tolerance I am not going to sweat .125" of increased track width on the left side and how it may, or may not, affect anything. If it was something more extreme I would definitely raise an eyebrow.

 

[krazy86t]

Interesting thread. Initially i thought you were refering to passenger front tire rub on the inside wall of the tire (this is my problem), but your measurements suggest that you are refering to outside edge rub of that tire.

Can you clarify? Inside or outside edge tire rub for passenger front tire? I should measure mine to see if it is opposite of yours.

Plus, if you move the body on the frame won't that mess up the rear measurements that looked pretty close? thx.

 

[jdpolzin]

I was able to move my body 1/2" to overcome my dreaded RF wheel rub. I could move the core support 3/8".

I dont believe that the factory would pre set them to clear the downpipe. That wouldnt make any sense at all.

The body of our cars, even regular stock street cars, are naturally pushed toward the LR under load. I tightened my body bushings up pretty tight to try to overcome the load of the car.

I do however need to re-adjust it again after 1 year of driving becuase it moved right back. I had rubbing issues again. I just decided to put smaller tires on it and enjoy the car until it gets a frame off.

 

[HelloBozos]

Bingo! This was going to be our first line of attack. We are going to remove all of the body bolts and try to shift the whole body over a 1/4". This should equal the measurements out from side to side. When your talking only a 1/4" it seems very possible that GM could have set these bodies off a tad or it just shifted that much over time....

Can you link us to the kit you used?


Thanks!
Scot W.

Save some time an measure the body to the frame starting from the rear,You most likly only have to shift the front support,My car was hit in the pass, front in a valet parking spot years ago,so my distance is more,but all can be shifted back when i go to paint an body in month.anyone reading this, do all your suspenion changes first,(brakes,a-arms,etc,etc) then buy rims an tires to fit,other wise you'll have to buy two differant sets for the front...(nobody tells you this) 8^(

Enjoy!!
Bozo

 

[charlief1]

I know that the chasis on the cars is flexable to some degree and Mr Kirban has stated before that with out the GNX bushings under it they won't line up correctly when you put the frame under them. I think Jeremy has a very valid point on this. The body will flex along with the frame and then move slightly. I have a feeling that's where the issue is. Get some new body bushings and put the 2 missings one in it. I bet that solves the issue of the tire rub for you Scott.

 

[scot w.]

anyone reading this, do all your suspenion changes first,(brakes,a-arms,etc,etc) then buy rims an tires to fit,other wise you'll have to buy two differant sets for the front...(nobody tells you this) 8^(

Enjoy!!
Bozo

I happen to disagree, I have 255/35-18 in FRONT and 285/40-18 in REAR With NO frame notch and just a fender lip roll, I am lowered 2" and completely off the stock suspension and only had a slight Scuff on my outside passenger tire when I had two people in my car! It wasn't tearing tires up, It wasn't gauging the tire, and it never ruined a single tire, it was only a scuff and so slight I bet you couldn't even see where it was done!! So with my 10" wide wheels in back and the 9.5" wide wheels up front THEY WOULD FIT "PERFECTLY" if the body/geometry issue from the factory wasn't there!!

Now then, Move onto the issue with the brakes moving the wheel outward all I have to do is send my wheels back to CCW with the measurements in my test and they will take care of that small brake issue real fast! Either by changing out a hoop on each tire or what ever John wishes to do. The "TRICK" begins with a quality 3-piece wheel and a wheel manufacture who knows these Buicks like the back of his hand and knows what it takes to make the wide ones fit. I was lucky to have been introduced to John @ CCW..

Your outcome depends mostly on your combination/set up...there are MANY way's out there to accomplish a handling car with the many suspension company's out there. There is just way too many variables that come into play here....(example) Back spacing, Wheel size, Tire size, Brakes, OEM/Drop-spindles?, 1"or 2" drop-springs?, reg or coil over-shocks?, Etc, Etc.

Some people may want to get the best bang for the buck in instant better handling over stock and to me a nice set of wheels and tires seems to make the biggest difference for the buck. Or they may not have to funds for all the other stuff first. Then it's sway bars, Then bracing, than if that still isn't good enough the suspension would be next....And even after the suspension upgrades like brakes, a-arms,etc,etc you still shouldn't have to buy two different sets of front tires because of this!

Yeah in a perfect world and endless pockets right from the start it would be BEST to do Everything all at once but not many can do that so people are forced to due things in steps just like me,I'm no exception. It may look at times like I have endless pockets but the reality is "Tax Returns" I only do one large thing to this car per year and that's it...Wheels & tires one year, The next was interior, the next was suspension and now this year it's brakes finally after 4 yrs this car is getting to where I envisioned it. so it can be done like this you just have to do it right the first time around and save yourself a bunch of hassle & time....


I don't want this thread to get off course, so let's please keep it on track so it can be used as it was intended for.

I will report back with more info when it's available.

Scot W.

 

[scot w.]

I know that the chasis on the cars is flexable to some degree and Mr Kirban has stated before that with out the GNX bushings under it they won't line up correctly when you put the frame under them. I think Jeremy has a very valid point on this. The body will flex along with the frame and then move slightly. I have a feeling that's where the issue is. Get some new body bushings and put the 2 missings one in it. I bet that solves the issue of the tire rub for you Scott.

That's the plan Charlie, We have been looking at it today and even came up with a cool little remedy to keep the body in place once you got it where it needs to be. If this ends up working out I will post pic's and a detailed write up on what needs to be done, BUT testing needs to be done first to determine if this worked or not...

Thanks for chiming in, your thoughts are always welcome!


Scot W.

 

[motorhead]

Just weld vertical supports/locators to the body & frame after centering it... problem solved.