Frustrated New GN owner

[boostedturbotom]

you wanna sell it, give you quick cash for your troubles. j/k . bop do you got any gauges how strong is your motor has it run the same since you purchased it you need a turbo tweaked chip , Eric 1-618-548-5953

 

[GNRick]

I would get the Comp 980's from Full Throttle for about $33. If the valve springs are original they need to be changed. You should easily be able to get in 12's with stock turbo, injectors and downpipe and elbow. You wont need a downpipe until you get in to the low, low 12's. It was proven years ago at the Nats(and I had the same results on my car) that a 3" dp will give almost no performance increase on a 12 second car. A good K&N, decent exhaust or a dump, a chip, sticky tires and either alky or race gas(whichever you choose) and a turbo Buick with no mechanical issues should easily be well into the 12's.

At what amount of boost? And doesn't a dump pipe hurt performance? So are you saying a 3" down pipe will only help after you've upgraded the turbo and injectors? I plan on installing a 3" DP this week, but I'll keep the stock turbo and injectors. Am I doing this in the wrong order?

 

[boostedturbotom]

you wanna sell it, give you quick cash for your troubles. j/k . bop do you got any gauges how strong is your motor has it run the same since you purchased it you need a turbo tweaked chip , Eric 1-618-548-5953

never mind me i had the display mode messed up i thought i was the first to see this post plus the sept. give away lol

 

[Steve]

At what amount of boost? And doesn't a dump pipe hurt performance? So are you saying a 3" down pipe will only help after you've upgraded the turbo and injectors? I plan on installing a 3" DP this week, but I'll keep the stock turbo and injectors. Am I doing this in the wrong order?

I always had good luck with 21 psi with the stock turbo and injectors etc. A 3" DP certainly wont hurt on a otherwise stock car but you just wont be able to take full advantage of it until you get the car in the low 12's and better. Back in the day before there were really good cat back exhaust everyone ran the ole cat replacement dump pipes(and of course the infamous fender dumps!). They worked very good but a good exhaust system is the better way to go so that you have the performance all the time without having to "uncap". Also when it comes to "bang for the buck" its hard to beat the Dutweiller neck on a stock car.

 

[Blazer406]

IMHO... a 3" DP with integral elbow (where you remove the factory elbow) will not hurt on a 14 second car.

I have no time slip comparison.... but before I put mine on... when it was bone stock.... I could take off from dead stop....w/o building boost... just stomp it... it wouldn't spin a tire.... felt like it was close to spinning.... but no spin......the day after I installed it with the test pipe... same boost level...I stomped it again w/o building any boost.... about 20' out... it started spinning the tires a little..... never did that prior to the DP....at that point... I only had a K&N air filter and a fuel pump...

Just my experience....

 

[BOP4ever]

How hard is a spring change ? I've not looked that hard but it looks a little busy under the hood of this thing....

Is it the years or something that makes this needed ? Or is 50 k just time to change springs ?

The car has ran pretty much the same from day one... I backed th eboost down from 19 and it really feels about the same. If anything smoother now. I am looking for my fuel pressure gauge just to see where that is at right now.

 

[blackmonte]

Don't feel bad I just raced a 2002 mustang last night, Granted he jumped on me a little but I thought for sure I would walk him nope I couldn't catch him.Only thing I can think is my car is not performing well with a slight header leak? My car has a walbro new pump, accufab reg,clean intercooler,new intercooler heavyduty hoses with t clamps,hooker exhaust with holes now,TT street chip,38# blue tops,K&N filter,scanmaster, turbo gauge,new fuel filter, plugs , wires,all spring cleaning done. I was depressed after last night.

 

[blackmonte]

Also O2s 790 no knock retard.Wide open run.

 

[Blazer406]

Don't feel bad I just raced a 2002 mustang last night, Granted he jumped on me a little but I thought for sure I would walk him nope I couldn't catch him.Only thing I can think is my car is not performing well with a slight header leak? My car has a walbro new pump, accufab reg,clean intercooler,new intercooler heavyduty hoses with t clamps,hooker exhaust with holes now,TT street chip,38# blue tops,K&N filter,scanmaster, turbo gauge,new fuel filter, plugs , wires,all spring cleaning done. I was depressed after last night.

If you aren't running any more boost.... it is only a high 13 sec car at best... w/o any mods.... IMHO... 38# injectors and a TT chip and the K&N are only worth a small amount of ET reduction.

These cars became notorious when modified... a stock GN running stock boost is by todays off-the-showroom-stock car you can go buy off the lot standards.

In '87 the stock ET of a low 14 beat the vette of the same year...

Now... regular C6 vettes go 11's right out of the box.... for comparisons sake.....

Times have changed...

IMHO...Put an alky kit and a new TT chip cut for alky... and some decent tires.....and cut the boost up (work your way up with tuning) .... you'll drop a second easy on ET... and that mustang can only get a look at your tail lights.

 

[hrhoward]

IMO, let it breath both in and out. Also, get a Scanmaster or equivalent otherwise you will not be able to fully tune what you do have nor will you be able to tune in any future mods.

 

[BOP4ever]

Wonder if after I tune the thing to run I hope low 12's with the stock turbo and IC ... by adding alky and new chip... That to go faster Id be better off to dump the 6 and put a v8 in it ?

My 77 TA went mid 12s with a 150 dollar cam swap and 75 dollar summit headers...Stock intake, Qjet and heads that I cleaned up the ports with my dremel tool with 9.5 compression on 93 octane and got 19 mpg to and from the track....

Swapped to Edelbrock heads, Holley carb, and single plane intake, 3" exhaust and a slightly larger cam... and went 11.30 to 11.60 at 120 to 122 mph.....

I understand that kinda of hot rodding... I want to learn the Buick I just fear I'm gonna find out it cost 3 times as much to get close to the same performance. Excuse me I am just kinda depressed today....( warning I am moody about these things )

Wondering is a 5.3 lsX engine with blow through carb set-up would be cheaper or maybe keep the FI and run it like that... Swap on some 6.0 heads to drop the compression to about 9 to 1 etc....

Save the original drive train for reinstallation if I want to return to stock to resale later or something.... This is sort of extreme and Id rather keep the 6 if I can get mid 11's and not have more in the motor than I have in rest of the car....
Just venting....

 

[hrhoward]

Read these articles "1986-1987 Intercooled Recipes" here: Turbo Buick Performance Build Ups/Recipes

Arm yourself with knowledge.

 

[BOP4ever]

My car has all the stage 2 stuff listed on the web site and pretty much the stage 3 minus airbags and line locks and brake upgrades.... No way in HE## this suckers got a 12 or even low 13 in it IMHO maybe a high 13 with a down hill track and good tail wind....Then I am running pump gas...

Sick, I power brake it to about 5 - 6 psi and it spins through 1st in about 15 feet shifts to 2nd gear bogs and down shifts back to 1st and does not spin anymore....

Going to start with fuel pressure and see where that is at...

 

[Blazer406]

My car has all the stage 2 stuff listed on the web site and pretty much the stage 3 minus airbags and line locks and brake upgrades.... No way in HE## this suckers got a 12 or even low 13 in it IMHO maybe a high 13 with a down hill track and good tail wind....Then I am running pump gas...

Sick, I power brake it to about 5 - 6 psi and it spins through 1st in about 15 feet shifts to 2nd gear bogs and down shifts back to 1st and does not spin anymore....

Going to start with fuel pressure and see where that is at...

You would be suprised how a set of 255/60/15 MT Drag Radials would help your car get off the line. When mine was stock... I could (with drag radials)... stage.... mash the brakes (powermaster system)... until your face looks like ..... then mat the gas... to the floor...... and when the boost hit about 10#.... let off the brake... and it would stick.... That is the only way to get one of these to ET decent on low boost is to get all you can get out of the hole.

IMHO.... with a few simple bolt-ons on a stock longblock....anyone should be able to get well into 12's on straight pump gas with no alky..... got to have the right bolt-on's.... and a good 60'...... preferrably sub 1.60....

What exactly are your goals?

How many miles do you put on your car?

There are cars on this board that will run mid 10's on pump gas... and are streetable enough to drive 500 miles tomorrow.... in the heat.... and get 25 mpg doing that....

Try to do than in a mid 10 sec old school Chevelle.

 

[bison]

Going 12's with one of these these days is really easy. First do all the basics like reset the sensors, clean out intercooler, replace 20 year old fuel pump if not done already and get a set of slicks or drag radials and an air bag in the right rear. If you go with c16 you should be able to run 24 psi boost and 26/24 degrees timing on the stock turbo and run 12.20's @110 mph with an open exhaust and a K&N filter on the MAFS and a Turbo tweak chip. Nothing else fancy needed as far as bolt ons. No down pipe or any other fancy BS. A scan tool is a must. A scanmaster is a decent piece that is in thousands of TR's. I love the LM1 wideband datalogger. It uses a wideband sensor and updates very fast and can be used on any car with the appropriate accessories. You should shoot for 11.3-11.5 a/f ratio without alky injection or 10.8-11.0:1 with alky on a turbo car. You could go a little leaner if everything is perfect but i gave safe numbers. A down pipe, and valve springs as well as a neck replacement on the intercooler are the next steps. With a good tune and all of the above i have gone 11.88@112mph back in 1999. Throw an alky kit on there and all this can be done on 93 octane. Add in turbo, intercooler, heads, cam, fuel system mods, suspension work and you can go 10's easily. Look at my sig. The buildup in there was thrown together in 2 days and run 2 days later to 10.88 on the first pass before i got the boot for no rollbar. I left easy with a 1.669 60'. Shortblock has a lot of miles and the car was nothing but a roller when i started 4 days earlier. Everything there except the gaskets was off my shelving in my basement from previous builds. It doesnt take much more than a good tune and the $. Tuning is the most important thing. Ive seen many 12 second cars that have way more mods and are lighter.

 

[BOP4ever]

I went and found my fuel pressure gage and the Fuel pressure was about 43-44 with the vacuum line off and about 38-39 on. I increased it to about 46-47 and 40 with the line on just to try something. I also went through the recepts and found where it had a waldro 340 pump installed in 2002... I do not know if the wiring was done...so maybe something I need to do it... how do I tell ?

Anyway took it to the car wash and washed the cat tracks off it....
Hurray no leaks !!!!

Drove it around town... got challenged by a Civic with a wing and fart pipe... thought better of it and waved him off... they had a laugh I bet....

Anyway on the way home I stopped and did a drag run from a stop... no brake stand just punch and goooooo.....it pulled smoothly boost comes in get a surge and it shifts to 2nd...........waiting............third.............dosed off....
oh pegged the speedo and lifted...

no odd noises very smooth... no tire squal etc....just like my moms old 84 buick with the 301 2 barrel felt back when I was a kid... well maybe not that bad. Glad I let the ricer go...Id probably lost.

I have a friend of friend with a 10 sec 87 gn... he is selling me his old SMC alky kit...I hope this really wakes this turbo turd up. I'll get a TT chip after I get it as well I guess.

My chevy buddy wants to me to race his 85 Vette......its a carbed 383 sounds nasty....He does not want run the TA.... so I figure its a 12 sec car.
I told him maybe next year.

 

[87GNSteve]

ALKy is not like Nitrous it will not turn your car into a tire smoking mega monster. It allows you to run higher boost safely using pump gas.
You need a chip for alky also.
Folks are giving you pretty good advice here especially on the scan tools.
I hope you follow it.

I recommend a recording scan that plus into a laptop.
Direct Scan or the Powerlogger from full throttle.
This way you record a run concentrate on driving and then read the data.

Oh yes I read you had a new MAF? (GM) ? As far as I knew GM MAFs have been discontinued for years. If its a rebuild its probably unreliable as they have provved to be and at WOT doesnt read the required 255 gps.
(MAF is the right hand man of the ECM)
I suggest the LS series MAF w/ translator from Full Throttle also it allows you to add and pull fuel too.
IF your MAF actually works correctly I would still remove that Gem and keep it in a safe place for future generations.

 

[BOP4ever]

The guy told me it was a new MAF... and rare he also gave me the original one if I wanted to have to rebuilt or something.... If the Maf was messed up would my mpg be ok... it got 24-25 mpg on the way home and it idles and runs smooth no surges or things like that to indicate a problem.

I want all that stuff you mentioned ... I plan to upgrade my autozray scanner to read obd1 GM so I can use it inplace of the 250 dollar scan master ....

Money is just not here right now after purchasing the car so I am having to wait when I want to fix it now !
frustrated like the original post said !

I enjoy cruising the car I just want to have no fear of anything new rolling off the show room floor.

 

[87GNSteve]

The guy told me it was a new MAF... and rare he also gave me the original one if I wanted to have to rebuilt or something.... If the Maf was messed up would my mpg be ok... it got 24-25 mpg on the way home and it idles and runs smooth no surges or things like that to indicate a problem.

Its rare alright, the MAFS dont always fail outright they some times loose range.
I had one that read 165 gps at WOT! it was only giving me about 1/2 the fuel I needed at WOT. The engine uses that to tell the ECM how much air is coming into the throttle and deliver the fuel accordingly. If it reads off it will deliver off.
So theroretically if you are getting great fuel milage when stomping the pedal alot it might be running off....Im not sure...

I enjoy cruising the car I just want to have no fear of anything new rolling off the show room floor.

Thats a tall order.
Read this its invaluable:
Vortex Turbo Buick Performance

 

[BOP4ever]

That was a good site... I read for about an hour on it....
I think I remember the site said that when over 3.85 volts on the TPS that the ECM went open loop and used fuel tables on the chip not the MAF ... if so WOT would not be affected by a bad MAF. I'll re-read it later to be sure I guess...

I remember driving a 87 TRans AM GTA stock about 10 years ago and it felt faster than my GN does... it would at least spin the tires if you nailed it from a stop.... I just can't figure it out right now it runs so well and smooth just lacks grunt no missing or hiccups no ping or odd noises trans seems to shift firm mpg is right ! It's almost quick but feels like a economy car with a automatic... sort of like my Wifes sisters Civic...smooth .......