Gen II or Not?

[Disney Lincoln]

Hello folks!!

Being new to the Buick world, I've found myself slightly confuces about tuning options. Right now I have a almost completely stock car (slight turbo upgrade, LS1 MAF, 60# inj.) that I want to get running right. I have some old chip in it now that i'm told is out of date and not good. I also have a brand enw Gen II that came with the car. My buddy has a regular MAF Translator that he said I could have, but it needs to be sent in for a repair ($50?).

He thinks i'm better off with a TT v6.0 chip, Powerlogger, and standard MAF translator.

I really enjoy tuning my own cars, and have been tuning all sorts of stuff for years, but it seems the buicks aren't as "tuner" friendly right off the bat. I was thinking about going to Megasquirt on it, but he's now talked me out of that and into a chip style tuner.

What say ye??

 

[rmar]

He thinks i'm better off with a TT v6.0 chip, Powerlogger, and standard MAF translator.

U can get a lot done with just that and alkycontol (Razor's alky kit)

 

[bad V6]

The Gen 2 gives the user to the ability to dial in the tune with more variables than just a chip can give, however is not as involved as an aftermarket ECU. With the addition of wideband monitoring the Gen 2 is a very capable tuning device that works piggyback to the factory ECU. I am very pleased with the results that my combinations have netted me since adding the Gen 2 and Extender Extreme chip.

If you are looking for a chip to work with the Gen 2 and your car's current setup, I may have just what you need. Or if you might need any help with the install, I'm about a hour north of you. Send me a PM if interested.

Pat

 

[norbs]

You can use the TT 6.0 chip with the gen II its not that complicated. Set the defaults on the Gen II, turn set the widband gain gain to zero, and set the output to Standard GN MAF output. Bring up the mainscale setting when you start the car and adjust it to your needs. Data log it with the power logger to see where the a/f ratio is going. Looking for about 12.-8 a/f on cold start, hot idle blms between 120-140 max.

 

[2QUIK6]

The GenII rocks with wideband feedback for tuning and using the ExtG, the ExtG that is made by the inventer of the GenII, Bob Bailey, takes full advantage of the tuning when using the wb with it. I used to tune and burn my own chips, still do for other club members and other cars, but after installing the GenII using the LS1 MAF and dialing it in, I haven't touched it in 2 years and have set new personal best times multiple times now with it with not many other changes.
If you later add Alky down the road, the GenII shines again when using the wb feedback...if for some reason the alky quits pumping or pumps less the GenII will be the AF climbing and automatically add back in fuel that was being cut due to the alky flowing...a little safegaurd help better than a chip that is basically hardcoded for a cetain amout of fuel in PE mode, which byitself isn't enough fuel if its specially for alky injection.

 

[norbs]

There is no part throttle feedback on the gen II for wb correction, only drawback, which puts you back to open loop fueling.

 

[ijames]

How quick do you intend to go? Sounds like your car could be anywhere from 12's to low 11's on race gas with traction. If that's where you want to stay then as others have said stay with what you have and learn to tune it. If you intend on going into the 10's and maybe to low 10's or quicker you will probably want an aftermarket system like the Megasquirt or FAST, so you might as well get that now and learn to tune it as you make the car quicker. You will have more adjustability and changes are easier. (Yes, lots of people have gone quicker than 10.50 on a chip but for the average tuner I think it's safer and faster and more consistent to change over somewhere in the 10's.)

 

[norbs]

I guess my goal of high 8's on a chip just doesn;t seem possible?:eek, Those aftermarkets have sometimes too many things too tune, which can be too much for alot of people, including myself to tinker with all the time.

 

[2QUIK6]

There is no part throttle feedback on the gen II for wb correction, only drawback, which puts you back to open loop fueling.

GenII-Pro does have part throttle wb feedback, GenII does not, but its not open loop, the ExtG chip that is recommended for use with it is closed loop part throttle, basically when not in PE mode, the stock ECM has full command.
The ExtG also allows for the extended MAF readings in case you have a bigger turbo its is easy to max out the stock MAF calibrations in some other chips.

 

[norbs]

What is a Gen II pro? We need Bob to clarify this stuff. But what I do know the gen II does not have part throttle wideband control, BOB told me this many times, once the ecm is in pe mode it goes open loop
(about 40% tps and a certain lv8 number)

 

[2QUIK6]

What is a Gen II pro? We need Bob to clarify this stuff. But what I do know the gen II does not have part throttle wideband control, BOB told me this many times, once the ecm is in pe mode it goes open loop about 40% tps and a certain lv8 number.

It's the MAFless version that uses VE tables, I guess its actually called the MAF Translator Pro, it has even more flexibility and tuning aspects than the GenII and does have part throttle wb control.
Everything else you said is correct in your last post. When it goes into PE mode it goes open loop and the GenII takes over for fueling and spark, but not in PE mode the stock ECM controls everything including closed loop operation.
The GenII and the Pro look very similar and install similarly if not exactly the same, and I beleive I read the Pro can still be used with a MAF, doesn't have to be mafless but most go that route..why use a MAF when you don't have to. Both are Bob B inventions.

Might also point out, depends on how much the OP wants to spend, it goes up fast with the translator, chip, and WB. Otherwise a user adjustable TT chip is the ticket. Both will still need a scan tool of some sort to tune it correctly.

 

[TurboDave]

It's the MAFless version that uses VE tables, I guess its actually called the MAF Translator Pro, it has even more flexibility and tuning aspects than the GenII and does have part throttle wb control.
Everything else you said is correct in your last post. When it goes into PE mode it goes open loop and the GenII takes over for fueling and spark, but not in PE mode the stock ECM controls everything including closed loop operation.
The GenII and the Pro look very similar and install similarly if not exactly the same, and I beleive I read the Pro can still be used with a MAF, doesn't have to be mafless but most go that route..why use a MAF when you don't have to. Both are Bob B inventions.

Might also point out, depends on how much the OP wants to spend, it goes up fast with the translator, chip, and WB. Otherwise a user adjustable TT chip is the ticket. Both will still need a scan tool of some sort to tune it correctly.

Norbs was asking because you refered to it as a GenII-Pro.

There a Translator GenII, and there's a Translator Pro. Not a GenII-Pro.

 

[TurboDave]

once the ecm is in pe mode it goes open loop
(about 40% tps and a certain lv8 number)

Ya, I've been watching mine, and looking at logs, and it happens right when the manifold pressure hits zero.

 

[norbs]

Actually I have both units, and in MAF mode I pefer the gen II since it has an option to add and subtract fuel at different points on the maf scale, 4,6,8,16,32,64,100 etc grams on top of user tunes, it is called sensor tune. The Maft pro does not have this option in maf translator mode, it has a ve table and/or user tunes which is similar though. A user tune allows you to adjust fuel +- based on rpm and load, but the load is a calculated number based on maf/rpm when using maf mode. Where in the gen II we can add fuel this way also but has the additional gram settings if needed. I find it easier to play with the gram settings.

 

[kaj]

since you guys are in the middle of a discussion, please let me ask a question or two relating to these systems.

right now, my car is a stock '85 with 38# injectors, 87 coil/module, an 87 ecu and a chip from TurboTweak.
i'm getting an MAL that says my MAF is bad. i'm planning to buy an '87 MAF.. but i'm told the car will drive better with an LS/LT1 MAF.
okay. so.. what are the basics i need to make it work? i'm very new to this so please explain in kindergartner terms. typing in crayon would help.
if i decide to upgrade beyond a basic LT1 MAF and whatever adapters are needed, i DO have a wideband. i also have a ScanMaster hooked up. if i decide i want some type of translator, what kinds of harnesses or adapters would i need? so many options.. i just need to know one, proven setup, please.
i'm used to being able to log and adjust fuel and timing tables, so i am 100% comfortable with that.

 

[TurboDave]

since you guys are in the middle of a discussion, please let me ask a question or two relating to these systems.

right now, my car is a stock '85 with 38# injectors, 87 coil/module, an 87 ecu and a chip from TurboTweak.
i'm getting an MAL that says my MAF is bad. i'm planning to buy an '87 MAF.. but i'm told the car will drive better with an LS/LT1 MAF.
okay. so.. what are the basics i need to make it work? i'm very new to this so please explain in kindergartner terms. typing in crayon would help.
if i decide to upgrade beyond a basic LT1 MAF and whatever adapters are needed, i DO have a wideband. i also have a ScanMaster hooked up. if i decide i want some type of translator, what kinds of harnesses or adapters would i need? so many options.. i just need to know one, proven setup, please.
i'm used to being able to log and adjust fuel and timing tables, so i am 100% comfortable with that.

I can write in crayon, so I'll see if I can help.

I think your mal code is probably a result of the maf you're running. I may be wrong but I don't believe the 85 maf is compatible with the 86 ECM. Once you get an 86/87 maf you may be OK in that respect.

As for the type of Translator, well the easiest would be the standard translator. It's plug n play but offers the least amount of tuning. Allows you to tweak base and wot fuel curves.

Translator GenII is more comples allowing you to tune much more precicely and over wider ranges, but is more complex to hook up requiring tapping into ecm wiring. Unless you buy the plug n play adapter(a little pricey). The GenII allows you to run virtually any maf from stock to huge!

Translator Pro is like the GenII on steroids. It can run any maf also, but.... It's primarilly designed to run in speed density mode (mafless), and as such has even far more tuning adjustments that can be made. It also has a built in closed loop, single stage boost controller. Can be wired to control a second fuel pump. Has an aux input, that can be used to trigger other functions. For example, I feed the aux input with my 3rd gear tranny signal going into the stock ecm. When 3rd gear hits, my trans pro reduces my boost a little and reduces my wot timing a little :biggrin:.
It wires in like the genII (hard wired or plug n play adapter)

Both the GenII and the Pro have wideband tracking capabilities, but with some differences....
The GenII will only do wideband tracking while at WOT, and the stock ECM does your idle and cruise tracking with the stock O2.

The Pro also does WBO2 WOT tracking, but also has the capability to do WBO2 PTT(part throttle tracking) at idle and cruise.
I will add one caveat to this. I have found that the stock ECM/narrow band O2 does a much better job at idle and cruise tracking.

I personally am running the Translator Pro, and have done a LOT of experimenting with it, and find that it will a magnificent job running either Speed Density or MAF modes. I have an LS1 MAF laying around that I used for the testing/tuning.

Dont have any personal experience with the GenII other than downloading and reading the manual.

My first translator was the Translator Plus, and I graduated from that to the Pro.


Hope all this giberish helps.

 

[TurboBuRick]

Most people I have met with these devices have no idea how to use them. That being said a regular translator with a ls1 maf and a extender ot TT chip is the way to go. Once you get the hang of tuning with that you can graduate to a Gen2 or Tpro.

People think of a gen2 or a tpro like it's some miracle fix. It's just not so. They are powerful tools but they are not miracle fixes for a car that has other problems.

Before stepping up to one of these, the car should not have any issues. Adding foreign electronic devices to a car with problems will just add to the confusion.

 

[norbs]

Most people I have met with these devices have no idea how to use them. That being said a regular translator with a ls1 maf and a extender ot TT chip is the way to go. Once you get the hang of tuning with that you can graduate to a Gen2 or Tpro.

People think of a gen2 or a tpro like it's some miracle fix. It's just not so. They are powerful tools but they are not miracle fixes for a car that has other problems.

Before stepping up to one of these, the car should not have any issues. Adding foreign electronic devices to a car with problems will just add to the confusion.

I could not have said it better myself. To keep it as simple as possible you would use a TT chip and normal standard translator,

 

[TurboDave]

Most people I have met with these devices have no idea how to use them. That being said a regular translator with a ls1 maf and a extender ot TT chip is the way to go. Once you get the hang of tuning with that you can graduate to a Gen2 or Tpro.

People think of a gen2 or a tpro like it's some miracle fix. It's just not so. They are powerful tools but they are not miracle fixes for a car that has other problems.

Before stepping up to one of these, the car should not have any issues. Adding foreign electronic devices to a car with problems will just add to the confusion.

Very well said!!! I completely forgot to add that caveat to my ramblings.

 

[norbs]

If your going to go with the 6.0 chip , if you don;t wan to use the wide band features, you don't have to , and you don;t have to spend your money twice to upgrade to it.