Help! Black tar on my injectors! E85+air+valvoline oil = black tar! Look at pics

[TA49-WE4]

Ok so these are some pictures of my new injectors that have 1000 miles on them. As you can see they are covered in a black tar like goo! Very Very sticky!

Inside the fuel rail is clean.

Inside the intake just has oil on it. No black tar goo.

But Where the oil, air and the E85 start mixing at the injector tip. ( Its running on 100% E85 ) The black tar goo starts and goes on into the intake runner in the head.

Im taking it that valvoline and E85 do not mix well. Yes the bottle of oil says its for gasoline engines. Also has a zddp bottle in with it.

Is there a E85 safe oil?

Has anyone seen this before?

Any ideas of something else it could be please post it!

The only other thing that I can think of is the egr is stuck open and the exhaust gas is going back into the engine all the time. But I figured if this was the case the black goo would be in the whole intake. The egr is always off, its programed that way in my turbotweak chip.

Thanks

 

[fatride]

I'm running 100% E85 and have not seen this on my car. How are the O rings? I run Royal Purple in my car also. How many miles have you put on those injectors with the E85? Sorry I wasn't much help...

 

[TA49-WE4]

I'm running 100% E85 and have not seen this on my car. How are the O rings? I run Royal Purple in my car also. How many miles have you put on those injectors with the E85? Sorry I wasn't much help...

1000 miles are on the injectors. The O rings are in great shape and look like new.

 

[jdpolzin]

Seems like the O rings may be breaking down?

 

[TA49-WE4]

Seems like the O rings may be breaking down?

O Rings are like new. It would take a whole O ring to make the amount of sticky black tar thats in one intake runner.

I really think its the air/oil and E85 mixed with the heat of the engine thats making this stuff. I belive what ever is in that oil is not reacting well with E85.

 

[bison]

Why would the oil have any thing to do with the problem? Alcohol and gasoline arent the best mixing fuels believe it or not. Looks like something that was in the fuel and may have deposited on there as the E85 probably vaporizes as it exits the injectors. Id suspect the fuel more than anything. I doubt its actually E85 anyway. Could be less according to their profiles. There is actually a range. 85% is the max amount of ethanol. Their not required to tell you how much ethanol is actually in the fuel. You never know what your going to get. EGR is inert gas and wont do much but waste volume and heat the intake charge if stuck open. Ive never seen a set of injectors look like that at 1000 miles. Its worth getting a flow test done to see if theres a problem inside the injector. Looks like it will have an effect on spray pattern. I wouldnt try to clean them till their flowed. Id do a leak down test too. Maybe your leaking compression past the valves.

 

[TA49-WE4]

Why would the oil have any thing to do with the problem? Alcohol and gasoline arent the best mixing fuels believe it or not. Looks like something that was in the fuel and may have deposited on there as the E85 probably vaporizes as it exits the injectors. Id suspect the fuel more than anything. I doubt its actually E85 anyway. Could be less according to their profiles. There is actually a range. 85% is the max amount of ethanol. Their not required to tell you how much ethanol is actually in the fuel. You never know what your going to get. EGR is inert gas and wont do much but waste volume and heat the intake charge if stuck open. Ive never seen a set of injectors look like that at 1000 miles. Its worth getting a flow test done to see if theres a problem inside the injector. Looks like it will have an effect on spray pattern. I wouldnt try to clean them till their flowed. Id do a leak down test too. Maybe your leaking compression past the valves.

I've done a compression check on the engine all cylinders are at or just around 165 lbs. Have not done a leak down check.

The reason I think its the oil is because there seems to be a lot of oil in the intake and the fuel rail inside before the injectors is clean as can be. No black tar in there. Oil is the only other thing in the intake besides air that would be mixing with the E85.

The injectors that I was running in the car before on gas have 25,000 miles on them and they are clean as can be. I have been running the same oil in the car with both gas and E85. Switched the car over to E85 and the black tar appeared.

 

[bison]

I've done a compression check on the engine all cylinders are at or just around 165 lbs. Have not done a leak down check.

The reason I think its the oil is because there seems to be a lot of oil in the intake and the fuel rail inside before the injectors is clean as can be. No black tar in there. Oil is the only other thing in the intake besides air that would be mixing with the E85.

The injectors that I was running in the car before on gas have 25,000 miles on them and they are clean as can be. I have been running the same oil in the car with both gas and E85. Switched the car over to E85 and the black tar appeared.

Thats why i doubt its the oil. More than likely the fuel.

 

[TA49-WE4]

Thats why i doubt its the oil. More than likely the fuel.

Could very well be fuel and im in no way saying that it is not. As thats the only thing I changed and it makes sence.

Im just wondering if it is fuel. Why the fuel rail, top of the injectors, fuel filter and lines don't have this black tar in them.

Any ideas on that?

Any chance its carbon buildup turning into this. I don't understand how carbon would make its way to the end of a new injector though. So the fuel makes more sence.

 

[disco stu]

I might jsut be how the pics look, but it looks like it's breaking down the plastic injector tip.

 

[SPOOLN]

It looks like you are burning motor oil. Have you noticed consuming oil, might be coming from the intake or exhaust guides and getting reversion to through the intake.

 

[TA49-WE4]

I might jsut be how the pics look, but it looks like it's breaking down the plastic injector tip.

Plastic injector tips are not breaking down, but yes it looks like it in the pics.

 

[TA49-WE4]

It looks like you are burning motor oil. Have you noticed consuming oil, might be coming from the intake or exhaust guides and getting reversion to through the intake.

Never smokes on start up or blows blue smoke that I can see. How do you check for reversion through the intake?

I have noticed that it is using oil but I don't know if its burning it or leaking it out somewhere. Seems to always be leaking somewhere.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

yep..

It looks like you are burning motor oil. Have you noticed consuming oil, might be coming from the intake or exhaust guides and getting reversion to through the intake.

I see this on injs I clean/flow test. I think Spoolin is on the money..Loose int guides, or bad seals. The alky fuel has nothing to do w/ it.

 

[TurboBuRick]

The alky fuel has nothing to do w/ it.

I'm with you Chuck.

 

[quickt]

Exhaust reversion into the intake.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Exhaust reversion into the intake.

I'm with you on this Lonnie.

 

[ronbuick]

Exhaust reversion in to the intake, please explain how this happens??? As I do not know.

Ron

 

[JDEstill]

The cam opens the intake valve before the exhaust valve is fully closed. The pressure in the headers is higher than the pressure in the intake because of the restriction imposed by the turbo. So when the intake valve first opens the pressure in the cylinder is higher than the pressure in the intake. So you get a puff of exhaust traveling backwards past the intake valve and up into the intake runner. Then as the piston keeps traveling down on the intake stroke the flow reverses back to the normal direction, and you start filling the cylinder with air and fuel.

I understand that it is not unusual for intakes to have discoloration and deposits in the last few inches of the intake runner because of this. Hadn't heard about deposits on the fuel injector tips though.

Also, this is a big reason why cam specs are important, overlap and exhaust closing points in particular. Wide lobe separation angles and reduced overlap help minimize this condition.

John

 

[ttypewhite]

You might want take off your intercooler pipe going to the throttlebody and look inside. If you are still running the stock breather into the turbo that can make a lot of mess. If that kinda stuff is in your intercooler pipe and dog house/ throttlebody you might want to elimunate that. Another possibility would be not having a stock valley pan under your intake and having your PCV suck engine oil and spray it out of the throttlebody into your intake/plenum.