Hot Air Intake Mods

[Boost231]

its a v2 intake. it was made years ago. im sure someone has one around.

 

[scpls19398]

Telephone

Telephone, Sure wish mine would ring from Jay:biggrin:

 

[JayC]

Telephone, Sure wish mine would ring from Jay:biggrin:

Ill ring you up in the next couple of days, George. We are absolutely slammed here and Im taking some classes in the evening so Im just nonstop these days.

 

[6 to go]

I am going to be selling a V2 intake in a while.
I have it on my 84 now and will be changing to a 87 intake.
A V 2 intake flowed a little less than an 87 intake,
This flow check done when JS was workling on their
intake back in the day. If anyone wants the V2 intake,
PM me. My 85 with an 86 intake and 87 turbo has been at
the GS Nationals for the last few years off and on.
6 to go

 

[cwmccray]

PM'd you...

 

[scpls19398]

Good talking with you jay. I always get carried away when I talk with you on thw phone. I forgot to ask about the eaton posi? You can just call me back when you have a few minutes.

George

 

[boostmaster]

flow numbers

thats awesome if you have access to flowbench slogn, i've never seen the actual numbers differance between the two

Do a search, someone did a flow test wayyyyyy back and posted the results. That post like many others may have gone with the wind.

 

[tb3]

anything new with the intake jay?

 

[charlief1]

I think he's been busy with the Nats this week.

 

[typhoon]

Yes I did some flow testing back several years ago, should be able to find it searching for posts I have done.

 

[tb3]

anything new wit this? :smile:

 

[JayC]

anything new wit this? :smile:

Not yet.. we're finishing up his headers now.. I should have some more pictures of those today. Im very happy with how they're shaping up. We should be back on that intake next week. Im one v-band short of being able to finish his headers so I have to order another one.. but the hard work for the headers is done.

 

[WFO]

Jay-

Don't know if you know Alan (6packtogo) but he did extensive R&D on hotair intakes a few years back. He developed his on a flow bench and there was apparently major flaws with the gutted style intakes, as evidenced by Lee Thompson torching a piston the first time out with one.

It looks like you're on the same page as Alan was...I wonder if he'd be willing to share any insight with you since he scrapped his project long ago? He also was basically gutting the inside and building new sheetmetal runners to equalize flow.


http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/hot-air-non-intercooled-tech/64511-hot-air-intakes.html

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ho...806-hot-air-intake-discussions-last-fall.html

 

[WFO]

The good parts:

What I've learned so far:

First, there are two ports that cannot be made equal to the other four without welding them on the outside. The same is actually true of the 86/87 intakes. The ports have a nasty twist and are necked down right behind the injector boss.

Second, checking individual ports on a flow bench WILL NOT tell you about air distribution. You can make each port flow EXACTLY the same, but that DOES NOT guarantee that each port will get the same amount of air when the engine runs.

Third, plenum design and shape is why there are air distribution problems.

Fourth, the stock plenum is divided and restricted, that's why there does not seem to be a problem with the stock plenum.

Fifth, some modified plenums have SERIOUS problems and may have SEVERE air distribution problems due to their design.

Sixth, the way to test for equal airflow is beyond the capability of most flow benches and operators. No, I'm NOT going to divulge how to do it, because I'm not telling everyone how to do what cost me a great deal of time and money to figure out, I do this for a living. Ask Jason Cramer about it, the plenum plate he makes is designed to solve the air distribution problem in the 86/87 intake, and the hot air intake is harder to work with.

I've seen a serious flaw in the design of the Turbo Motion open plenum intake, and what happened to Lee leads me to believe that flaw causes a major problem, because Lee's problem proves my theory on what that plenum flaw will do.

I think I can solve the plenum design problem, when I do, I'll say I did, and if I can't I'll say I can't. In fact, I'm pretty sure I already have solved it. Do not expect me to post pictures showing everyone how to duplicate what I do since it has cost me plenty of time and money.

Not everyone needs or wants the fully modified open plenum intake, and I'm not going to try to sell them. I'm developing an intake because I want one for myself, and I have a couple of friends interested. Few if any will want to pay what I'll have to charge for these intakes anyway, because I'm not going to fool with making them for intercooler setups. It takes about 40 hours to make one of these intakes work to the point I have them now.

Much like Lee Thompson's custom hot air headers, it is practically impossible to charge what it is worth or to make money on them. If you throw out the cost of materials, wear and tear on equipment, and R&D time, just the labor is actually worth $2K. If I sold them at $800 each, most would say they were way over priced and I would actually lose money on every single one. Selling them at $800 would work out to $20 an hour for labor and $0 for shop use and R&D time which would have to be amortized into the cost of each intake for profitability. Try getting anything done for $20 an hour and you'll see what I mean. The only reason for me to even TRY to sell these is to recoup what I've spent doing this for myself, so doing them real cheap isn't even worth thinking about.

 

[WFO]

more:

Let me describe for you what goes into fabricating one of these.

First, set it up in a Bridgeport, to cut it open the right way. The Bridgeport (mine is really an Enco) is a 3 phase machine, 3 HP. So I have to turn on a 5HP 3 phase converter, it uses a lot of electricity. Set up takes about 30 minutes, and it takes at least an hour to an hour and a half to cut the intake out.

Next, I weld the two ports to allow room to equalize them, weld the narrow section at the inlet to widen it, and then weld plates in the two fake ports inside. A TIG welder requires electricity, water (cooling tower), Argon, Tungsten electrodes, and filler rod. This welding takes over an hour.

Next, back to the mill, where we make the roof of the plenum, out of 5052 aluminum plate. Then we widen the narrow section of the inlet. Takes an hour or so, plus setup time.

Next, back to the welder, to put in the plenum roof. About a half hour or so.

Back to the mill, to do the heavy part of blending the plenum roof.
Half an hour.

Then, off to the porting bench. Now we port and polish the actual ports, and finish blending the plenum roof. This takes 4-6 hours.

Now, we move to the flow bench, has a 10 HP motor that drives a 6-71 blower, takes plenty of electricity, and is deafening, I can't hear the phone, or any customer who may walk in. We take a prefabbed basic plenum and attach it to the intake, and check the runners for flow. We allow +/- 5-7 cfm variance between all 6 runners. This takes well over two hours, closer to three.

Back at the porting bench, we bring any low ports up to meet the better ports, and all reach the flow level we expect. Takes an hour or so to get there.

Back to the flow bench to verify everything is correct so far. Another hour and a half minumum. Sometimes two and a half since here we go back and forth between the flow bench and the porting bench.

Now, after all that, we have to build the two side walls, the front wall, and the floor of the plenum.

First, back to the mill to cut out the basic pieces and rough them in. Takes an hour or so.

Over to the welder now. First, we make the front wall, I'll just tell you it is not a single flat piece, nor is it curved like the T-M version. We weld it together, and weld it in. The two side walls are fairly simple, we weld them in too. Then we shape and weld together the plenum floor, with the flow correcting "appendages".
We're here about three and a half hours, because the pieces have to fit just right, and it is very difficult to weld in a tight area on a piece of aluminum that will charr your flesh if you touch it.

Back to the porting bench to smooth and blend the front and side walls where they are welded in, and to finish the plenum floor so it can be welded in. An hour and a half at least.

Finally, back to the welder, we weld the plenum floor in. Takes over an hour, you can't rush any of this, warp it and it's junk.

Now we head over to a solvent tank to check for leaks, and back to the welder to repair them if required. Another hour.

And now, the flow bench again, to verify under pressure that there are no leaks. Then, we set up a test fixture to measure air flow and pressure at all six ports, to make sure we don't send out a problem. Setting up and measuring all of this takes three to four hours, due to the need to set up devices to measure with at all six ports, and to take and verify the readings at least twice.

Then we have to fabricate and weld on the lower cover so that hot oil stays off of the bottom of the plenum, and that those areas exposed by cutting the intake open are sealed off again as they should be. Two hours

All of that assumes that every step goes perfectly, or at least 90% error free. That's near 30 hours on an intake that goes very well, and I left out cleaning and stripping the intake, verifying that the intake itself is sound and solid, and needs no repairs to begin with. Nor does it count setting the intake up in a Storm Vulcan 85B and truing the flanges to assure that it bolts flat and perfect to the heads and block.

 

[tb3]

so i assume 6packtogo never got around to making a intake for hiself? i understand his point about people going to bitch about the cost of something that has so much time and $$$ invested.

i'm excited to see jays results, nevertheless :smile:

 

[charlief1]

I checked his profile and the last time he was on here was 06. If you click on the second link provided he states he said screw it, he was done. Seems like a very knowledgable guy and I'm sorry he's gone.

 

[Boost231]

more:

Let me describe for you what goes into fabricating one of these.

First, set it up in a Bridgeport, to cut it open the right way. The Bridgeport (mine is really an Enco) is a 3 phase machine, 3 HP. So I have to turn on a 5HP 3 phase converter, it uses a lot of electricity. Set up takes about 30 minutes, and it takes at least an hour to an hour and a half to cut the intake out.

Next, I weld the two ports to allow room to equalize them, weld the narrow section at the inlet to widen it, and then weld plates in the two fake ports inside. A TIG welder requires electricity, water (cooling tower), Argon, Tungsten electrodes, and filler rod. This welding takes over an hour.

Next, back to the mill, where we make the roof of the plenum, out of 5052 aluminum plate. Then we widen the narrow section of the inlet. Takes an hour or so, plus setup time.

Next, back to the welder, to put in the plenum roof. About a half hour or so.

Back to the mill, to do the heavy part of blending the plenum roof.
Half an hour.

Then, off to the porting bench. Now we port and polish the actual ports, and finish blending the plenum roof. This takes 4-6 hours.

Now, we move to the flow bench, has a 10 HP motor that drives a 6-71 blower, takes plenty of electricity, and is deafening, I can't hear the phone, or any customer who may walk in. We take a prefabbed basic plenum and attach it to the intake, and check the runners for flow. We allow +/- 5-7 cfm variance between all 6 runners. This takes well over two hours, closer to three.

Back at the porting bench, we bring any low ports up to meet the better ports, and all reach the flow level we expect. Takes an hour or so to get there.

Back to the flow bench to verify everything is correct so far. Another hour and a half minumum. Sometimes two and a half since here we go back and forth between the flow bench and the porting bench.

Now, after all that, we have to build the two side walls, the front wall, and the floor of the plenum.

First, back to the mill to cut out the basic pieces and rough them in. Takes an hour or so.

Over to the welder now. First, we make the front wall, I'll just tell you it is not a single flat piece, nor is it curved like the T-M version. We weld it together, and weld it in. The two side walls are fairly simple, we weld them in too. Then we shape and weld together the plenum floor, with the flow correcting "appendages".
We're here about three and a half hours, because the pieces have to fit just right, and it is very difficult to weld in a tight area on a piece of aluminum that will charr your flesh if you touch it.

Back to the porting bench to smooth and blend the front and side walls where they are welded in, and to finish the plenum floor so it can be welded in. An hour and a half at least.

Finally, back to the welder, we weld the plenum floor in. Takes over an hour, you can't rush any of this, warp it and it's junk.

Now we head over to a solvent tank to check for leaks, and back to the welder to repair them if required. Another hour.

And now, the flow bench again, to verify under pressure that there are no leaks. Then, we set up a test fixture to measure air flow and pressure at all six ports, to make sure we don't send out a problem. Setting up and measuring all of this takes three to four hours, due to the need to set up devices to measure with at all six ports, and to take and verify the readings at least twice.

Then we have to fabricate and weld on the lower cover so that hot oil stays off of the bottom of the plenum, and that those areas exposed by cutting the intake open are sealed off again as they should be. Two hours

All of that assumes that every step goes perfectly, or at least 90% error free. That's near 30 hours on an intake that goes very well, and I left out cleaning and stripping the intake, verifying that the intake itself is sound and solid, and needs no repairs to begin with. Nor does it count setting the intake up in a Storm Vulcan 85B and truing the flanges to assure that it bolts flat and perfect to the heads and block.

So you put me in line for one? You know you want this intake on one of the fastest hotair cars right it will be the fastest next time out. I have a few ideas on the intake as well to help. Pm me if you want

 

[Boost231]

opps, my bad. i was using my phone and thought alan was back. i would jump on it. anyways good info none the less. i almost forgot about those posts.

 

[charlief1]

opps, my bad. i was using my phone. i thought he was back and was going to finished these. i would jump on it.

LMAO Nice try Brent.:biggrin: