Individual Port injection of methanol???

[olsonjus]

I'm looking at doing a seperate fuel system just for injecting methanol.

My main concern is injecting the methanol in too great of quanity and so close to the engine. I'm worried that if I inject the methanol right at the port, it wont have enough time to completely vaporize and I may wash a cylinder. Is this a valid concern? I have a large 24*12*3 inch intecooler so the charge temps aren't going to be too high when they reach the ports.

The reason I want to give each cylinder a injector is for precise fuel distribution. Do you have any problems when injecting large amounts of methanol from a single nozzle in the charge pipe?

How much horsepower worth of methanol can I inject from a single nozzle?

Thanks for the help,
Justin Olson

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by olsonjus
I'm looking at doing a seperate fuel system just for injecting methanol.

My main concern is injecting the methanol in too great of quanity and so close to the engine. I'm worried that if I inject the methanol right at the port, it wont have enough time to completely vaporize and I may wash a cylinder. Is this a valid concern? I have a large 24*12*3 inch intecooler so the charge temps aren't going to be too high when they reach the ports.

Are you talking about using regular EFI fuel injectors, or just nozzles feeding from a pump?.

Too much of any fuel can wash a cylinder.

If your just using nozzles, then they'll need to be extremely small, and while vaporization might be a problem, you'll be gaining alot in atomization.

 

[olsonjus]

I was thinking about using efi injectors but boy does the price really stack up against me. I then have to find a methanol compatible fuel pressure regulator along with a fuel pump that would work.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

If you are not going to use methanol as the primary fuel I do not see the need or expense to get a completely seperate system.

The fact that you are using meth for a cooling effect would mean you need to get it further away from the head to take advantage of this aspect.

Whats wrong with one or two nozzles in the up pipe?

There are guys on here running 10's with a single nozzle.

You should get ahold of Julio ( Razor ) he can steer you the right way and save you a ton of time and money.

 

[HEMI T04]

I think this is a very interesting issue, because i have heard of the pros and cons of both setups. I have bought julios setup and will initially test with methanol after the turbo and before the throttle body. But i would love to perform the following test on the same day:

-Do a power run with the nozzle as per julios advice. and adjust the methanol for maximum power , no pinging and acceptable exhaust temperature .

-Then remove and ire-nstall the nozzle before the turbo( my turbo has the carbon seal to handle fuel)

-Finally with 6 jets ( basically just small holes) into each runner with one solenoid and then to the same shurflo pump etc. With exactly the same methanol settings and total flow of 6 jets equal to that of the one larger jet. And then do a power run and see the results and mixtures. And if required adjust the methanol volume.


I'm slowly getting my setup ready to perform this test on the 3 locations.

But i'll tell you now, i think there will be a big difference in all 3 locations, and from advice i think the multi port will give the best power. This is coming from someone with an 8 second 1/4 mile hilborn mechanical methanol injected 4.3l 6cyl turbo engine that gained 60 hp (from 750hp at the engine), from moving his jets from near the plenum chamber into each runner to directly just before the head!

 

[Razor]

See the injection kits do a replacement of about 20-25% of your fueling. Running higher than that I would look into more precise control.

But that precise control..your looking at a major deal. Pumps, injectors, regulators, return, etc.. its a complete fuel system. And pumps dont favor sitting in alcohol..

Start with what you have.. then let the experiment begin.

 

[PhilM]

For alky i prefer the WET method if it will aid in cooling. WET method i think is fine for alky inj, gives better cooling effects and injector/nozzle matching isnt a concern. We spray em pre sprcharger/IC to aid in cooling vanes.... but this IS post throttle body.

And if you want PRECISE control, add 6 injectors to it, although, then you will be mad expensive and need a nice controller to adjust PWs of the injs. That n youll be replacing injectors more than youd probably want.

But go ahead man... someone needs to do stuff thats nuts!

BTW ! Make sure your nozzles are matched or i sense some unfair cylinder treatment and potential problems that you may have overlooked --- just a note, injectors of same rating have been noted to be off up to 15% - thats why they match em.

Also, remember post throttle body is under boost so add appropriate line valving so your alky dont shoot out of the resevior or you lines remain unprimed.

 

[HEMI T04]

multi point alky

Since injectors are too expensive what i was planning on using was some sort of carby jet, also to match the flow i was going to pressure test into a bucket and see how much comes out in each bucket- change jets to suit.

Also the problem of response time, i think that where i would have to run a return line from the 6 lines to the jets with a pressur econtrolled valve of some sort- or an electronic solenoid that i would pulse to trim the pressure /flow.

But these are all theories that are yet to be tested

What my system will be trying to emulate is a hilborn/enderlie mechanical direct port injection system with the sureflow pump and electronic control and only operate under boost pressure.

 

[turbotz2]

Re: multi point alky

Originally posted by HEMI T04
Since injectors are too expensive what i was planning on using was some sort of carby jet,
What my system will be trying to emulate is a hilborn/enderlie mechanical direct port injection system with the sureflow pump and electronic control and only operate under boost pressure.

22-28 lb injector sell for $30-50 a set of 8 over on Corvette forum.com on a regular basis.
If that is too expensive better not even start.

 

[PPI Typhoon]

22-28 lb injector sell for $30-50 a set of 8 over on Corvette forum.com on a regular basis.
If that is too expensive better not even start.

Gasoline injectors won't hold up to the alcohol long at all and will eventually fail quite prematurely.

Injectors however made for alcohol specifically are quite expensive.

 

[PhilM]

u r correct

You would need an alky rated injector and they AINT CHEAP!... plus these injectors also wear out!

Std gasoline injs will not work reliably and i would really worry bout flow matching if they start to deteriorate.

 

[HEMI T04]

Exactly as said above, alcohol compatible fuel injectors are damn expensive!! I think that we don't need them anyway, as long as you control the flow of the return line with a stainless steel solenoid valve near the distribuition block into each cylinder, it will give you enough response time to use the system under boost only sistuations. I will be controllolling the sureflow pump duty cycle based on rpm ( is it changes slower than boost) and the return solenoid based on boost psi. i plan to use a look up table for both.
Since we don't intend to use it under normal driving vacume situations it doesnt have to be that responsive.
My only question would be do mechanical injection systems like this have problems with fuel atomisation, bore wash, and spark problems because the fuel is not atomised but more a stream of fuel?