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new recipe for 11s

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Bruce, I do not disagree with you regarding "more is better" with regard to injectors....what you have to remember is, until the very recent past, Bluetops were about the biggest injector one could acquire that had some chips available (most noteably, cheap Thrasher chips)

It wasn't real easy to buy 50's, let alone 55's and be able to use them......no chips, no experience, etc

So, in today's world, I would start at 50's for sure, and no doubt life would be better...of course, the chips for those are more expensive so......the timeless combos live on!:)
 
Re: Re: Re: new recipe for 11s

Originally posted by Mr URL


Stock turbo about pegs 55's??? I don't think so. Never seen a stock turbo in the deep 10's before.


Yes, you can get to pegging them with a stocker.
And lots of folks around here have detonation problems, want to guess why?.
The only reason you have to go richer then 14.7 AFR is for in cylinder COOLING. Small turbo generates alot of Charge heating, so you need to start doing alot of in cylinder cooling, that takes fuel.
Real short answer, but for more details feel free to investigate the NACA papers.
 
Originally posted by c&cgn


Weird how the results are exactly the same too. Coincidence??? ;) I went a littel different route with the chip but still managed 11.79 @ 116 mph before I upgraded to 50's.

Why did you go to 50's?.
Wouldn't it have been cheaper to buy them the first time around?.

Tuning with a real risk of going too lean, to me, seems to just not make sense. Why not get a size with a little head room, and be a lil too rich rather then detonating the motor?.
 
Re: Re: Re: new recipe for 11s

Originally posted by Mr URL


I agree a wide band O2 shows you a lot more but I do disagree the stock O2 is absolutely worthless. It's better than nothing and doesn't cost $1,000.


PLEASE look at the thread on the Scanner section, and look at my post there.

$1,000?.
Try less then $200.
Takes some soldering and effort, but beats guessing.
 
but I still haven't gotten a straight answer as to how long the 5 wire 02 holds up to leaded fuel? It could get expensive fast if you race much....or do the 02 cha-cha everytime to the track?

I'll stick with egt and knock............
 
Originally posted by bruce


Why did you go to 50's?.
Wouldn't it have been cheaper to buy them the first time around?.

Tuning with a real risk of going too lean, to me, seems to just not make sense. Why not get a size with a little head room, and be a lil too rich rather then detonating the motor?.

I bought 50's because after running high 11's I decided that was not fast enough and I wanted low 11's or high 10's and 50's will get me there.

Cheaper to buy first time around? Absolutely, but I hadn't intended on going faster than high 11's and was on a tighter budget when I bought the bluetops (and bought them used). When $$ loosened up a little, and I had ran the 11.79 I decided not to risk it. I agree with you that bigger is better with injectors and IMO now the best injector upgrade freom the stockers is 50's and that's the way I will do it when I get a 2nd TR.
 
ok the original question was could he do it on 36#s....it has been proven over an over that you could....now if ya just want to run 11s what's wrong with "blues" ....why go to 50s if 36s will get the job done EASILY!!!

Bruce have you ever tried "blues"???? do you have a car that you test with or just your "bench" ???? (just wondering if you have used them)
 
Originally posted by azgn
but I still haven't gotten a straight answer as to how long the 5 wire 02 holds up to leaded fuel? It could get expensive fast if you race much....or do the 02 cha-cha everytime to the track?

I'll stick with egt and knock............

There are lots of variables.
FAST seems to suggest 50 hours.

The good thing about the WBs is that they operate at 850dC, or about 1,700dF. Lead don't stick well to surfaces that hot. they also have a tiny sampling hole. While it dampens there resonse you can make a shield from a spark plug anti-fouler to keep the sensor out of the direct exhaust stream.

As I understand things the LeMans racing series it is a leaded fuel event, and lots of cars go 24 hours straight with WBs.

FAST and Motec just to name a few use the Honda (NTK) sensor
 
50 hours is reasonable on a race car...on a street car, no way

just wanted to get that info out so everyone understands....there is no free lunch
 
Originally posted by Grumpy
ok the original question was could he do it on 36#s....it has been proven over an over that you could....now if ya just want to run 11s what's wrong with "blues" ....why go to 50s if 36s will get the job done EASILY!!!

Bruce have you ever tried "blues"???? do you have a car that you test with or just your "bench" ???? (just wondering if you have used them)

If you were to listen to an injector chatter as it tries to go static you wouldn't be stating so much as fact, ie no problems.

I've worked with stockers, redtops, 009s, 50s and 55s.

I've had stockers, redtops, and 55s in my car, and done hundereds of chips for them.
I've tuned a car with 009s and then with 55s, several dozen chips for both combos.
The other car has 50s, and we're waiting for some 72 for it. It's seriously out of injector.

I have 3 cars that I have spent alot of time doing chips for.
I do at least 4 chips a day, for my car, and probably average another dozen a day on the ecm bench.

Also got over 10,000 miles of use with a WB on my car. I take 4-6, 1,000 mile trips a year, and run different chips back to back, long term and compare the results. Also tune with a Translator Plus while experimenting on trips so I can cut everyting to 2d and within several percent AFR.

I only mention the larger injectors after seeing how borderline things really are. If folks perfer info from 10 years ago that's fine and wonderful. You like static injectors, fine, but there are other options.

With 99.44% of the chips designed for being used that way, that's most of the reason for the inertia for running static anyway. So few people actually know how to do things otherwise.

Maybe when enough DS runs are followed up on in the scanner section folks will catch on to what I'm saying.
 
Originally posted by bruce



But why play with fire?.
Look at the number of folks blowing head gaskets around here.

It's like anything (even 55s) ... you don't go out and crank the boost to 30 psi on the first pass without knowing where you are at. You sneak up on the tune. Start low and monitor, make a change, monitor, tweak ... repeat until you are happy.

Up until recently, the 36s were a VERY good combo for a mostly street car that could bust off an 11 at the strip. It looks like the 009s (and to some extent the 50s) are pretty well sorted out now too.

Again, no magic ... just common sense. And it still works!

There are many high 12 second/105 mph cars that are running 55# injectors and fighting driveabilty problems and unable to go faster (again, you aren't a typical case :) ... you have access to a programmable ROM, commented source code, WB O2, etc. etc. etc.). Those are usually the guys blowing headgaskets too... I'd contend it's more approach than the actual parts. Heck, some folks can break a box of hammers! :)

Until someone releases a 55# chip (and the ECM mod) for the stock turbo setup, they are better off having some 36# injectors and the proper chip to use them. They just will be happier, in my experience, since it's pretty much "plug 'n play".

They may not be able to go 11.teens, but they will be able to go high 11s with no real danger, if they use some common sense and monitor thing. The key isn't to go gonzo, but to sneak up on the tune until you max it out.

You want to play around, running static, that's fine, feel right at home, but NOT EVERYONE should play that game.

OK, so teach me ... I'm not trying to pick a fight ... teach me about what happens that will help me understand. Again, I've got a lot of time with these combinations (albeit, much less scientific than what you are doing) and I haven't seen the typical car exhibiting any terrible behavior or losing performance. We're not talking about squeezing things to the thinnest margin ... common sense, like I said ... and again, we DID use a Horiba WB O2 on the chassis dyno many moons ago and didn't see anything too dramatic.

Just tell me of one advantage of running the 36s.
Not that so and so did it, but one sound logic reason to use em.

Well, don't dismiss real world results (including my own) so quickly ... I'm not talking about "I read about it in Car Craft"... I'm saying touched it, saw it, wrenched on it, and got data from it experience. The bottom line is that it is a combination that works. BTW, I've seen a lot of problems with over injectored (is that a word?) cars too ... it comes down to the skill of the calibrator/Translator users, IMHO.

Here's some reasons I'd say go with the 36# injectors in a combination that involves a TA49:
  • Many chips available, due to the experience base in using them
  • Proven to go high 11s with that kind of air flow
  • Easy to find a chip for driveabilty
  • No special black magic needed to run decent times at the track (high 11s/low 12s with traction, octane, and conservative boost)
  • Up until recently, 55# injectors were VERY difficult to control in a stock turbo car
  • Easy to resell when it's time to upgrade again

That said, I'm NOT saying it's the ultimate injector or anything of the sort. I'm just pointing out that for many folks that aren't as into the bits and bytes of how all this works, they are effective and easier to see results from out of the box.

Personally, I still like the 009s ... and haven't seen any of the "sky is falling" stuff that is being discussed. I agree that 55# injectors are a good idea for a 10 second ride (and when I get mine back together, that's probably what I'll be upgrading to), but I have a hard time believing that they are necessary for every combination.

And to reiterate ... I respect your hard work and data, and hope to learn more as you share it, but all I ask is that we also acknowledge that there is more than one way to skin a cat! You just gotta be careful how you hold the knife! :)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: new recipe for 11s

Originally posted by bruce



Yes, you can get to pegging them with a stocker.
And lots of folks around here have detonation problems, want to guess why?.
The only reason you have to go richer then 14.7 AFR is for in cylinder COOLING. Small turbo generates alot of Charge heating, so you need to start doing alot of in cylinder cooling, that takes fuel.
Real short answer, but for more details feel free to investigate the NACA papers.

If you can peg 55's with a stock turbo your car has some serious issues... fuel delivery problems, a wacky programmed chip, or you found a good way to kill West Nile mosquitos from pouring black smoke out the exhaust.
 
By my math, 80% duty cycle on 55#ers is 528 horsepower? I don't have any experience in the data gathering you gentlemen speak of, but I have never seen a stock turbo make that kind of HP. What am I missing?

FWIW, I ran 117+mph w/ a 117.89 best on Blues at 36# static fuel psi, albeit with 70% Isopropyl alky injected.
 
Bruce

What all is necessary to running 55# injectors? (mod computer, T+, ?)

Right now I have bluetops, but was looking to upgrade. I was thinking of going with 50's, but am curious of the 55's.

What would you suggest for a pretty muchly daily driven car?
 
I ran 113 Mph at Norwalk on an old stock turbo and old stock injectors, stock untouched heads, stock IC, and stock high mile engine. Ah, with good chip and an enormous amount of time tuning.
 
Originally posted by bruce


Just tell me of one advantage of running the 36s.
Not that so and so did it, but one sound logic reason to use em.


Ummm... with $300 and a 12 second combo you can run pretty easy mid to high 11's.

If I wanted to spend thousands of dollars to run 11's, I would have kept my mustang.
 
Originally posted by YGETV8
By my math, 80% duty cycle on 55#ers is 528 horsepower? I don't have any experience in the data gathering you gentlemen speak of, but I have never seen a stock turbo make that kind of HP. What am I missing?

FWIW, I ran 117+mph w/ a 117.89 best on Blues at 36# static fuel psi, albeit with 70% Isopropyl alky injected.

The reason for running richer then 14.7 at WOT is for in cylinder cooling. Adding alky and or water takes the place of some of the excess of fuel needed to do the cooling. So you've artifically lowered your engines fuel requirement.

55s
55x6= 330
330/ .65 = 507
507 x .9 (DC) = 456 HP

Your a heck of alot more likely to be at .55 BSFC then .5 and if you use the FAPR to keep you AFR up during a run you'll be adding another 10% +- in fuel.
I'm using 65 just to allow for some error in that you want to calc slightly rich rather then lean.
 
Originally posted by UNGN


Ummm... with $300 and a 12 second combo you can run pretty easy mid to high 11's.

If I wanted to spend thousands of dollars to run 11's, I would have kept my mustang.

12s to 11s for $300, how about from 13s to 11s?.

What the heck thousands and mustangs have to do with any of this is beyond me. We're talking about the price difference from 36s to 55s.
 
Originally posted by azgn
50 hours is reasonable on a race car...on a street car, no way

just wanted to get that info out so everyone understands....there is no free lunch

You're running race fuel on the street?.
You original guestion was how long they lasted with leaded fuels.

I have over 10,000 miles on my WB using unleaded.

If your using leaded, you only need the WB for tuning, it's pointless to just run it for the sake of running it with leaded.

50 hours is alot longer then some of the NB last with unleaded...

no free lunch, and yet you want to grind on running a small injector, and running it static.
 
Originally posted by bruce


12s to 11s for $300, how about from 13s to 11s?.

What the heck thousands and mustangs have to do with any of this is beyond me. We're talking about the price difference from 36s to 55s.

When you start adding up the cost of modded ECM's, Wide band O2 sensors and custom chips, pretty soon you are taking about real money. And gee, you know what, a high 11 with 55's isn't any faster than a high 11 with bluetops.

If this thread was about running mid 11's or low 11's, sure 55's might be the hot ticket.
 
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