NOS w/alky enrichment


Forum tech Advisor
Staff member
Jul 31, 2001
Topics been a little slow.. so I thought of a different viable idea.

Pondering the idea of using methanol instead of fuel for a NOS "wet" system. Like a 125 shot, have the methanol supplement the fuel portion raising its octane, cooling the cylinder, and helping assist with detonation issues.

Guess use a jet thats double the typical gas size jet, and have it sprayed into the motor progressively with the boost, using the nitrous fuel selenoid.

Am I off in a tangent or what?? :D


I did some research on this topic & have found that many people that have motors running on straight alcohol often run race gas with their nitrous systems as the fuel enrichment source due to some tuning issues.

I spoke with 2 individuals that consistantly had lean engine damage. (only on specific cylinders) I think it is partly due to the typical rich mixture that is run with nitrous & some atomization issues with such a large volume of fuel injected. If the alcohol condenses on the port wall it may not combust properly.

The cooling value & octane of alcohol sounds promising. A small volume of alcohol may work fine if the engine is primarily running on gasoline. I'm also waiting for someone to be the "brave" individual to potentially sacrifice their engine in the name of science. I did see one magazine article where nitromethane was added with nitrous on a gas fueled motor with very big power increases. This seemend dangerously fun but again beyond my monetary risk level.

If you do try this, I recommend you buy the special (exotic fuel) piston for the fuel solenoid as the regular one may swell & therefore not open leading to disaster. To the best of my knowledge, only the NOS Pro Race solenoid somes with a teflon seat.... not sure of the other brands.

Hope this helps.
I'm only thinking a 125 shot, run at lower boost, and monitor KR heavily with a reduced timing chip. I have selenoids that are alcohol compatible already, I'd use that with with the fuel nozzle in the NOS jet. Doubling the alky volume by increasing the fuel jet.

Or..ditch the selenoid altogether, and may just do this using the NOS as a dry shot, and upping the ramp on my controller to really spray alky into the motor. Make an NOS input on it, so while spraying th controller really gets aggressive..I know that I can drown my motor currently with my couple this with the NOS..sounds too easy..there has to be a catch.

The idea is to replace fuel with alky.. what a concept?? Most race motors on 500 shots.. way different scenario..

wh1-Denver.. You thought my alky kit was bad cuase you broke your tranny and rear end.. :D .. you wanna play with my newly acquired Nawzzz kit.. Ohh boy :eek: Yeah yeah I know..once your at 26 PSI and not knocking..what else is there to do and go faster ;). I'm picking up 15 gallons of methanol tommorrow, call me I'll save you some :)

I would think the simpliest way is just a dry kit and have methanol injection come on before the NOS nozzle, together.

However like mentioned above you are at the mercy of intake manifold/cylidner distribution of the mixture.

On the wet shot idea, can be done also but not sure how. (seperated alky system with return line and regulator?) I have heard some of the viper kits pre-mix liquid propane (tank upside down) with nitrous instead of using gasoline.
i heard of nitrous systems being enriched with propane or alky.

viper guys, 3000gt guys, and toyota supra guys are the ones that come to mind.

the 3000gt guys had jet sizes matched up and everything... this was about a year ago that i researched it. i believe it was spawned by trying to enrich nitrous on cars that already had maxed out fuel systems.

i don't remember much detail - but it seemed to be working well!
NOS and alcohol


Don't you have enough to do without messing with NOS???

I haven't been on the board in a while, but this thread caught my eye as I will be injecting alcohol with NOS on my turboed GTO(not my Buick) this summer.

I have been researching this a while, and my conclusion is the reason everyone says to only use NOS with gasoline is that it is possible to get the intake charge too cold for good use with alcohol.

Only gases can burn so you have to evaporate both the NOS and the alcohol before they hit the cylinder which takes time and temperature. With both NOS and alcohol there may not be enough heat available to evaporate the alcohol. NOS and alcohol have very high latent heat value. THe heated up air coming out of the turbo helps, but by increasing pressure(boost), you raise the evaporation curve of the alcohol so it takes a higher temperature to evaporate it.

The blown alcohol guys seem to like an inlet temp of 180* in the ports. They vary the amount of alcohol that goes in the hat and the amount injected in the ports to get it there(usually 30% in
the hat, 70% in the ports). They stick an autometer electric temp sender in a port and run it to a coolant temp gauge to monitor it.

Anyway, the only guys I have found that inject alcohol with the NOS in this crowd do it in the hat, so it goes through the blower and probably dissipates all its cooling right into the rotors or the aluminum case.

My GTO is not intercooled, so I have lotsa heat available(300* turbo outlet temp at 20 lbs boost).

I think you can get away with it on the Buick if you don't use too much of either and sneak up on the right mix of alcohol and NOS. Watch the inlet temps.

I would use a seperate fogger nozzle for the NOS and just richen up the alcohol via your controller instead of plumbing the alcohol right into the fogger. No sense in bringing those 2 together any sooner than necessary and having a blizzard inside your intake plenum!

Let me know what you learn.

Pete.. where ya been.. Up to 30 PSI yet :)

Nah I was tinkering with the idea of increasing the rate of methanol pumped in using the controller. In other words, as soon as the NOS hits, just up the pressure of the controller to offset the fuel enrichment portion. I think on a mild shot ought to work pretty good. ya a 50-75..

I have this brand new NX wet kit here here just itching for a home :).. just for a few more MPH.

Soon soon..
Razor if you make this happen I will follow. Seems every freaking LS1 in Tucson is spraying now and its hard to beat the bottle on the street.

What would be wrong with just doing a wet kit with a fogger right before the Alky.

Keep us posted as MPH is what wins Street races and killing at the track is only half the battle here...
First time poster here. I've found this site to be a treasure trove of information but this thread is hands down the most interesting I've seen.

Pete - I run a turbo alcohol 2.3 Ford (sorry) and am very curious about the inlet temps you mentioned on blown alky. It's always been my theory that seeing as methanol vaporizes at 150deg having a charge temp lower than that would be more hurtful than helpful. Is that the blower crowd's reasoning?

If that is the case how do you think it would affect the tuneup if the air charge temp before the nozzles was in the 120deg range (which mine has been)?

Is there any way I could contact anyone for some detailed info? I'll tell ya, trying to find accurate information on this combo hasn't been easy.

Thanks, Dave
Dave I think you know why I posted this then ;)

Glad I caught your interest :)

Hi Dave,

You're right. 180* seems to be the magic number as far as the blown alcohol guys are concerned. The other thing is they are pumping in so much alcohol that if the inlet temp drops too low it
takes a super hot spark to light it off. That's why they are ditching those killer MSD boxes for magnetos. Hang out on some of the hardcore racing boards if you want to learn from the pros
about running with alcohol.

If you notice on the brochures they give you when you buy race gas, they also specify a vaporization rate and it varies by brand. All everybody ever looks at is octane, but if you were real smart(I'm not) and knew what vaporization rate you needed for your combination, there is probably some power to be had when running race gas as well. I think this is also one of the reasons they tell you not to run AV gas in automotive applications as the vaporization rate is different than race gas.

SInce you seem interested, I'll tell you how I got to this point. I'm somewhat of a newbie to the Buick scene as I am just starting to sort out my GN.

I have messed with NOS and turbos for about 10 years. This is the 3rd car I've used it on. Let me tell you how it goes(listen up

You tell yourself you'll just use a little to get the boost in faster and to make a little more power. It works, so you try some more, things break, but you fix them and use a little more, before long you have modified the car so it is totally dependent on the NOS and it can't get out of it's own way without the bottle. Maybe it's just me.

My current project is '69 GTO street car with a Pontiac(not a chevy) 350 that I put a Turbonetics 60-1 on sucking through a Holley 780. I know, old school carbureted, No EFI, no knock detectors, no intercooler, but it was sufficient to take the car from a 14.6 @96 to 12.6 @110 and still be streetable. I left out a lot of details, but enter the NOS.

I graduated from 1 to 2 to 3 foggers and even tried for 4, all dumping into the inlet side of the compressor, all staged seperately using Hobbs switches reading boost. I ended up running race gas from a seperate tank for the NOS as I could not control the knocking any other way. I also went up to a .96 exhaust housing on the turbo.

I experienced some major driveline failures(broken driveshaft yoke, numerous transmission failures, teeth ripped off the ring gear,etc) once I had that sorted out the head gasket failures started. I tried every gasket there was and finally fixed it by Oringing the head and using old fashioned Pontiac steel shim sandwich type gaskets with ARP studs.

Then I became obsessed with using the NOS in first gear. Up until then I could only use it in 2nd gear. I switched from Hoosier Quik Times to Quik Time Pros, went with 90/10 50/50 shocks, dropped down to 2.73 gears (hard to find for a 12bolt) switched to a very tight 11" convertor. By adjusting the turn on point of the individual foggers I got the launch sorted out.

I was only running 18-19 lbs boost, and 20* advance, but the big problem I had was the car would go bananas when I first hit it, pull like crazy, then after a few seconds the knocking would start. Not all the time, but enough that I had to address it.

Since I had no ECM to help me, I installed 2 MSD retard boxes triggered by switches on the console so I could reach down a few
seconds into the run and and take out some timing. I wanted to automate the process, but all the automatic retard boxes I looked at required an elaborate staging process to set them up each time you wanted to use them. I wanted to just punch the car anytime I wanted without setting all that up. I also added a 3rd switch to take out some boost.

This brings me up to last summer when I added alky to my Buick. Thanks to this board and the people who frequent it I was able to cut down my usual trial and error learning curve and get it pretty well sorted out in a few months. I'm currently using Razor's controller with SMC's external pump as I found the Shurflow to be too slow to react and I got sporadic knocking from a rolling punch. A Turbotweak chip has helped a lot also.

Using Direct Scan and moving my IAT sensor into the plenum on the Buick, I noticed that with a front mount intercooler and a single M15 alky nozzle running at 90psi, at 26psi turbo boost I was getting inlet temps on the Buick in the 78-88* range. So NOS may not be a good idea on my Buick, but you never know until you try.

Actually, my Buick is way slower than it should be for the stuff I've done to it, so it has occured to me that there may be something going on with the inlet temp here, but I haven't figured anything out yet.

Back to the GTO. I already had gotten an EGT meter from SMC for tuning the Buick, so I got an intake probe from Steve as well and measured the temp coming out of the turbo on the GTO and to my amazement it was around 300*. I always figured that dumping in 150HP worth of NOS ahead of the turbo would cool things down a lot, but that was not the case. Apparently the cooling effect of the NOS was being totally absorbed by the turbo.

I still got the extra oxygen which made the HP, but I never got the cooling to combat the detonation. As an experiment, I leaned out the secondaries of the Holley super lean and put an M15 spraying at 90 psi right after the turbo on my GTO and the charge temp dropped from 300-200*, just from adding that much alcohol. I couldn't get the Holley lean enough to dial in the mixture and I had learned what I wanted so I put the car away until I could set up the alky system properly.

SMC is making me a custom 1 gallon tank with return regulator capabilities and I'm going to use a Shurflow with a Mallory alcohol bypass regulator to dial in the pressure. Then I'm going to move
the foggers one at a time from the inlet to the outlet side of the turbo and switch them to Alky instead of the Race Gas. Taking a page from those alky racer's book, I am planning to put a temp sender in the tube leading to the intake manifold so I can mount a permanent gauge for monitoring the intake temp. I will probably leave at least one fogger on the inlet side just to keep the volume of alky injected reasonable.

If you like, send me your email address and I'll keep in touch and let you know how it goes.

Originally posted by turbogto

SMC is making me a custom 1 gallon tank with return regulator capabilities and I'm going to use a Shurflow with a Mallory alcohol bypass regulator to dial in the pressure. Then I'm going to move
the foggers one at a time from the inlet to the outlet side of the turbo and switch them to Alky instead of the Race Gas. Taking a page from those alky racer's book, I am planning to put a temp sender in the tube leading to the intake manifold so I can mount a permanent gauge for monitoring the intake temp. I will probably leave at least one fogger on the inlet side just to keep the volume of alky injected reasonable.


Pete.. hehehe.. NOS is just like alky.. you first put it runs 18 PSI..the 20..then 25..then you say 27..then one day it hits 30 and lives..then your running 28 all the time.. meanwhile your killing transmaissions, going through tires, totally addicted to the way the car pulls on the highway, that you cant turn it down..

That regulated system is cool, you should reference the regulator to boost pressure. This is probably a must do so as boost rises so does the alcohol being injected.

BTW, got in touch with Eric..we're working on something ;)
Yeah Julio, I knew you of all people would understand. It sorta sneaks up on ya and before you know it there's no way to turn back.

I am pretty psyched to get after that Goat. I was really stumbling around in the dark on that car until I decided to measure the inlet temp. Funny how working on the Buick has helped me sort out this other project.

I'm not sure about boost referencing the fuel used to offset the extra O2 from the NOS. I've never done it before, because the same amount of NOS is going into the engine regardless of boost.

Although you may have a point because I've always sprayed on the inlet side of the turbo and with the fogger on the outlet side now, as the boost increases I may have to increase the fuel pressure to overcome the boost pressure just to keep the same amount going in.

Have to think on it. Keep the ideas coming.


BTW: I'm gonna need some custom length braided steel hoses(#3 and #4) with the teflon core that resists alky. Where can I get those?? Is it possible to get some with reusable ends so I can cut them to length myself??
Thanks for the help guys. Pete - what are some of the hardcore boards you mentioned? I've spent time looking but never have enough free time to really research it well.

Maybe I didn't specify but I meant I was running straight methanol. I am currently burning about 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 gallons per pass and found the 7AL I used to use didn't have enough power to light it. I switched to a Crane HI-6 (but plan on using an HI-7 this year) and was able to richen it enough to drop EGT's from 1300deg to 1050deg and timing from 30 to 24 deg with no loss in power. Looked into a Pro Mag but was worried about cranking rpm and starting issues.

I was curious about the 180deg number as up to last year I was running a 60-1 at 25 psi and could see a major power loss when the IC water temp went up. I thought maybe it was because it was so far out of its efficiency range I needed all available oxygen. Now that I've got a T72 I'm wondering if it will respond favorably to a little higher intake temp even at the 30 to 35 psi I plan to run.

One other ignition related issue - I'm beginning to suspect in my application I'm needing a much colder spark plug than I have been using. Is this common on blown alcohol?

Are the plug heat ranges affected much on a primarily gas fueled/water alky injected combination?

Oh, and Pete, I can relate to what you said about no ECM and lots of Hobbs switches - I've been using mechanical injection on mine with no datalogging. Ugh! Please do keep me posted. My e-mail is

I appreciate all the help. I sure need it.

Try the Harvey Race Engines board: Lotsa alcohol guys hang out there.

Those EGTs sound really low to me. My Buick runs 1650-1700* @107mph without knocking, tho I don't really know what normal EGTs are for a full on alky motor.

Most guys on this board are pretty much running pump gas and misting alky into the intercooler outlet pipe to try and squeeze out some more boost.

Good luck

Would it be wiser to run direct port, dry nos shots instead of a fogger setup with your current alky system controller ramping up like decribed earlier? This way the two nozzles are as far apart as possible. It sounds like adding nos and alky at the same point has a similar effect as spraying alky before an intercooler, the cooling from the nos or cooler may cause the alky to drop out and puddle.
This is exactly the issue I've been grappling with.

I'd rather put both NOS and Alky into the same fogger for simplicity and be able to tune the alky with jets as well as pressure.

I have not found anyone doing this. The guys I have seen mixing alky and NOS were using plates which keeps the 2 pretty well separate.

The whole idea of the fogger is to use the incoming NOS to atomize the added fuel, but the fuel is supposed to be gasoline.

I have heard guys say that the point at which you mix the NOS & Alky can hit 200* below zero. Don't know if this has been verified or not, but it is a point of concern.

My 60-1 is like one of those heat guns you see at Home Depot. I would think it could thaw out just about anything once it gets rolling, tho it takes a few seconds to reach max BTUs.

I guess it's time to hit the tech lines at NOS, but my experience is that the people you need to talk to are usually not the people that answer the phone.

Tech dept at Nitrous Express says alcohol and NOS in a fogger is not a problem and cited numerous examples.

Jetting they gave me with their Shark nozzle running 10psi over boost pressure is:

50hp: 35NOS 33Alky
75hp: 41NOS 38Alky
100hp: 52NOS 46Alky

As a reference with gas it's:

50hp: 35NOS 26Gas
75hp: 41NOS 28Gas
100hp: 52NOS 38Gas

Got the SMC 1 gal tank. Very nice. Much better mounting provision than their previous 1/2 gal. Bottom feed and top return are brass pipe thread fittings not plastic. Had Steve adjust the sender to come on at 1/3 full. I hate surprises.