Oil pressure and or flow question
- Thread starter Otto J
- Start date
Russ Merritt
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2002
GREAT QUESTION! I'm running into the same problem on a customers car. I did the timing chain and valve springs and when I primed the motor, very little went to the rockers and a TON went to the turbo feed line. This car has had bad billowing smoke problems with 2 differant turbos and I am starting to wonder if it's an oiling problem now.
turbodave231
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- May 24, 2001
During one of my headgasket replacements, When I still had the intake manifold removed, I removed the cam sensor and ran the oil pump with my priming shaft. I had the turbo feed line routed into the return tube with some rubber hose.
I was amazed how much oil is routed to the turbo. I can see why these engines don't hold the best oil pressure. That oil feed is a major hemorage in the engine oiling system!!
Someone ought to develop a closed loop stand-alone oiling system just for the turbo, separate from engine oiling!!
Dave
I was amazed how much oil is routed to the turbo. I can see why these engines don't hold the best oil pressure. That oil feed is a major hemorage in the engine oiling system!!
Someone ought to develop a closed loop stand-alone oiling system just for the turbo, separate from engine oiling!!
Dave
Reason i ask is because every turbo that i have put on my car has had some sort of smoking problem, The current one i have seems to push oil out of the center section down the exhaust housing.My oil pressure was about 75 PSI driving around town, sSO i chainged the spring and brought it down to 65 psi WOT and also restricted the oil feed line. It still pumps a ton of oil even being resticted but the problem seems to have stopped.that was about 3 months ago and i ahve no signs of any problems. It is a BB turbo so i dont know if that would make a difference.
Otto
Also the turbo was sent back and redone, and the problem still was there.
Otto
Also the turbo was sent back and redone, and the problem still was there.
BLACKHAWK38
New Member
- Joined
- May 26, 2002
BUICK Brass block adapter has 4mm restrictor
The odd shaped buick brass male run tee (1/4" npt male X 1/4" npt female X 7/16"-24 female inverted flare GM part #
1259890 , has a restriction built in of about 3/16"
When some people change over to the turbo saver remote oil filter system, I do not think there is any restriction there, except maybe for the last steel an-6 fitting on the turbocharger oil inlet.
I have been using AN-6 turbo oil feed for a couple of years now, with No problems
Regards, blackHawk38
The odd shaped buick brass male run tee (1/4" npt male X 1/4" npt female X 7/16"-24 female inverted flare GM part #
1259890 , has a restriction built in of about 3/16"
When some people change over to the turbo saver remote oil filter system, I do not think there is any restriction there, except maybe for the last steel an-6 fitting on the turbocharger oil inlet.
I have been using AN-6 turbo oil feed for a couple of years now, with No problems
Regards, blackHawk38
Corky Bell's book talks about oiling a little bit.
1. He says that too much oil pressure can create problems, and that it is possible to force oil past perfectly good seals if the pressure at the turbo exceeds 65-70 psi. hmmm, my car certainly has that much pressure at the turbo when I get on it.
2. symptoms of oil getting past the seals would be frequent but not quite constant smoking. Solution is to add a restrictor or bypass to the oil feed line.
3. Restrictor: a 0.055-0.065" orifice in the turbo oil feed line. He recommends installing a pressure gauge downstream of the restrictor to prove there is adequate pressure at the turbo.
4. Bypass - tee at the point where oil goes into the turbo, one end of the tee goes into the turbo, the other end goes back to the engine (into the pan I would presume). Bypass line back to the engine gets a restrictor in it so it doesn't starve the turbo completely, just diverts some oil away from it.
5. Actual oiling requirements (for almost all turbos he says): at hot idle the turbo needs 5 psi and 0.1 gpm. At maximum load it needs 25 psi and 0.5 gpm.
Doesn't sound like much does it? The thought of adding a restrictor makes me nervous... I would consider talking to John Craig or PT&E personally before I did it, just to get some reassurance.
John
1. He says that too much oil pressure can create problems, and that it is possible to force oil past perfectly good seals if the pressure at the turbo exceeds 65-70 psi. hmmm, my car certainly has that much pressure at the turbo when I get on it.
2. symptoms of oil getting past the seals would be frequent but not quite constant smoking. Solution is to add a restrictor or bypass to the oil feed line.
3. Restrictor: a 0.055-0.065" orifice in the turbo oil feed line. He recommends installing a pressure gauge downstream of the restrictor to prove there is adequate pressure at the turbo.
4. Bypass - tee at the point where oil goes into the turbo, one end of the tee goes into the turbo, the other end goes back to the engine (into the pan I would presume). Bypass line back to the engine gets a restrictor in it so it doesn't starve the turbo completely, just diverts some oil away from it.
5. Actual oiling requirements (for almost all turbos he says): at hot idle the turbo needs 5 psi and 0.1 gpm. At maximum load it needs 25 psi and 0.5 gpm.
Doesn't sound like much does it? The thought of adding a restrictor makes me nervous... I would consider talking to John Craig or PT&E personally before I did it, just to get some reassurance.
John
BLACKHAWK38
New Member
- Joined
- May 26, 2002
Never put in Restrictor that small !!
I would NEVER put in a restrictor that small!
Quote from TURBOCHARGERS by HUGH MACINNES
"Never use a screen or restrictor orifice in the turbocharger oil-supply line. Either will clog quickly and cause early turbocharger FAILURE". "IF the oil flow pressure is so high that the added flow causes drainage problems, place a pressure-reducing valve in the line, not an orifice"
I have an Idea for a electric divert valve , It consists of a Solenoid valve, pressure switch and fitting,
I would plumb in a tee fitting and pressure switch close to the turbo oil inlet, and then also plumb in Another tee further up stream with the solenoid valve to divert extra oil to the valve cover, HERE would be ok to use an orifice on the divert drain,
When the pressure gets to high , the presssure switch would close and turn on the solenoid to divert oil away.
you could set the switch to kick in a say 30 lbs
any takers ??
Regards, BLACKHAWK38
I would NEVER put in a restrictor that small!
Quote from TURBOCHARGERS by HUGH MACINNES
"Never use a screen or restrictor orifice in the turbocharger oil-supply line. Either will clog quickly and cause early turbocharger FAILURE". "IF the oil flow pressure is so high that the added flow causes drainage problems, place a pressure-reducing valve in the line, not an orifice"
I have an Idea for a electric divert valve , It consists of a Solenoid valve, pressure switch and fitting,
I would plumb in a tee fitting and pressure switch close to the turbo oil inlet, and then also plumb in Another tee further up stream with the solenoid valve to divert extra oil to the valve cover, HERE would be ok to use an orifice on the divert drain,
When the pressure gets to high , the presssure switch would close and turn on the solenoid to divert oil away.
you could set the switch to kick in a say 30 lbs
any takers ??
Regards, BLACKHAWK38
Russ Merritt
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2002
Re: Never put in Restrictor that small !!
Really? I saw my new BB T-70 center section at Cottons the other day and it came right from T-netics with a screen/filter on it.
BTW, I test drove my customers car for 2 nights tweekin and tuning it a bit and got no smoke at all to speak about out the exhaust. Thought I had it fixed Got home today and on the machine "it doin it again" This is the second turbo on this car and the second TE-44 I've seen this problem on. This car has the stock oil pump, the other car has a big pump on it. I like the smaller oriface theory Anyone talk to limit bout this? Wonder if they have a solution.
Really? I saw my new BB T-70 center section at Cottons the other day and it came right from T-netics with a screen/filter on it.
BTW, I test drove my customers car for 2 nights tweekin and tuning it a bit and got no smoke at all to speak about out the exhaust. Thought I had it fixed
Got home today and on the machine "it doin it again" This is the second turbo on this car and the second TE-44 I've seen this problem on. This car has the stock oil pump, the other car has a big pump on it. I like the smaller oriface theory Anyone talk to limit bout this? Wonder if they have a solution.Red Regal T
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
This may be the reason for my lower than expected oil pressure. I noticed that I only had about 32 psi at 2000 rpm on a hot afternoon, running the AC, cruising down the expressway for about 40 miles. I was surprised it was so low. Usually it would run about 40 psi at highway speeds and around 2000 rpm on hiway runs. I put in the stiffer oil pump spring and it helped quite a bit. Transitioning into hot summer weather and the installation of the PTE turbo saver in early spring must be the answer to my lower than expected oil pressure. I'm going to check my pump clearance also. The pump has about 85,000 miles on it and I'm 55,000 miles into my short block freshening. In cooler weather the oil pressure is just fine, but hotter weather has made it lower, although not noticeable last summer. I'm blaming it on the recently installed turbo saver. Idle pressure is 14 to 18 depending how hot it is. I'm also going to use all 20-50 when I change oil tomorrow.
- Joined
- May 9, 2002
How much heat does the engine oil take away from the turbo?
How would a restricton in the turbo's oil supply affect heat build up in the turbo and its longevity?
Those are two questions I'd be checking pretty close before I put much of a restriction from stock oil flow through the turbo Just my two cents
An experienced vendor has prolly figured it out already....to launch out on your own without taking heed of that experience, well....Its your money
How would a restricton in the turbo's oil supply affect heat build up in the turbo and its longevity?
Those are two questions I'd be checking pretty close before I put much of a restriction from stock oil flow through the turbo
Just my two cents An experienced vendor has prolly figured it out already....to launch out on your own without taking heed of that experience, well....Its your money
Russ Merritt
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2002
I don't have to worry anymore, the day after this kid took his car home it got stolen That's the end of that.
That's the end of that.
J
JCotton
Guest
Russeli, Alias ..... Hrhd....
Got an awful sweet looking BB CPT70 turbo sittting on the bench here, I just don't know what to do with it.......
Got an awful sweet looking BB CPT70 turbo sittting on the bench here, I just don't know what to do with it.......
Richard Lee of Lee Performance makes and uses restrictors that bolt to the the center section of the turbo. It would bolt over the orginial feed hole and uses a -AN fitting. Might try calling Richard at 909-674-8171 or going through Kenny Dutweiler (Richard sells some of his products through Kenny; like the oiling plate).
Jeff
Jeff
Gave John Craig a call yesterday on this topic.
Requirements: he said that 30 psi is enough for the turbos needs at WOT.
Said that Garrett recommends no more than 50 psi with a 1/4" feed line.
He went on to say that if I've got 70 psi at WOT he wouldn't be concerned about it at all, and if I'm not having any problems, then he would NOT recommend I install any type of restriction. Perfectly understandable advice
In fact, I'd say he was pretty hesitant to talk about the matter, he really didn't want to say anything that would encourage me to do something like this. Again, prefectly understandable.
He said he only recalled adding oil restrictors to one setup, and that was a car that had 90 psi oil pressure.
With that one they threaded in a set screw of some type into an AN fitting, then drilled the desired orifice size through the set screw. He said he didn't know of any type of pressure reducing valve that could be used in this service.
John
Requirements: he said that 30 psi is enough for the turbos needs at WOT.
Said that Garrett recommends no more than 50 psi with a 1/4" feed line.
He went on to say that if I've got 70 psi at WOT he wouldn't be concerned about it at all, and if I'm not having any problems, then he would NOT recommend I install any type of restriction. Perfectly understandable advice
In fact, I'd say he was pretty hesitant to talk about the matter, he really didn't want to say anything that would encourage me to do something like this. Again, prefectly understandable.
He said he only recalled adding oil restrictors to one setup, and that was a car that had 90 psi oil pressure.
With that one they threaded in a set screw of some type into an AN fitting, then drilled the desired orifice size through the set screw. He said he didn't know of any type of pressure reducing valve that could be used in this service.
John
First of all, to try and answer your question, basically no, it cannot be fed too much.
IMHO, trying to restrict the flow anymore would be a disaster. Remember, that shaft is spinning uppwards of 100,000+rpm at full boogy. It needs and can use all the oil you can give it.
In essence, the return line and associated plumbing (and the center section drain provisions make it virtually impossible to feed too much oil into the center section.
The supply elbow (on the stock type feed system) is a little smaller than the line that feeds the oil to the turbo. Contrast that to the nearly 3/4" hole exiting the turbo (and even larger drain line), and you can see that the center section would NEVER be under pressure, just a lot of oil. Basically it can drain much faster than it can be fed.
I also did the exact same experiment that turbodave231 did and yes, there is a LOT of oil coming back down the turbo drain tube (I looped a piece of hose off the supply line right into the still mounted turbo drain tube), but not nearly enough to consider it not large enough.
HTH.
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