Okay! What is your true and tried recipe for a high to mid 12's sec GN???

[Sweet6]

On the GN I ran the 11.79 at 18 degrees timing and 21lbs. 60' was 1.68 on that run. I can run either 26 degrees or 18 degrees with the Max Effort chip I have. I have been tempted to run my car on 93 octane to see what it can do. Maybe next year I will try it. But I would think mid 12s would be no problem.

I do like my vigilante. Car spools near instantly.

 

[87we410877]

I went 12.82 at 114 on 93 octane, street tires and 6 lbs of boost w/ a 2.0 60'
The only way to do what your asking is to over mod it to compensate for running street tires and 93 and it doesnt sound like you want to do that. Your street tires may hook at the track ona busy day but never on the street.

 

[MyBoosta]

Wow. Now I feel better. I guess my car have enough mods to accomplish what I want to do (high 12's or maybe just maybe mid 12's).

I learned something today, I have a Poston Knock gauge on the pillar [the one with 3 green lights, 4 yellow and 2 red] and I thought that any flashing of any light was a BAD thing.

I used to see the first green light flash and felt that it was bad and quickly lifted thinking that a head gasket was about to pop. Well, today I was told by two respected sources that green is good, yellow is okay and RED means lift on the gas and revisit tuning parameters, fuel and so on.
I was also told that I can run my car until about the second to third Yellow light before any bad happens and a revisit to my T+ would be necessary.

IS THIS CORRECT? HAVE I BEEN TOLD THE RIGHT THING? Please excuse my ignorance.

Shoot, I've been adding fuel and taking away timing, calling myself protecting the motor. The crazy thing is, the car runs pretty good with that whimpy tune. Heck, I can wait to get home and see what's going to happen once I add some timing and possibly lean it a little. Maybe I should turn the base fuel to 2% richer instead of 4% and 6% richer!
Right now on the T+, the timing is -4* retarded BASE with 6% more fuel WOT.

How much timing do you guys typically run on 93 in the Low and High gears in this Cool weather? (55 highs to 40 lows ambient temps)...here in Texas that is cool weather! And, how much timing, again on 93 octane?

Thanks in advance for all your help; I've been learning a lot from this thread.

Oh yeah, I'm seeing about 16 to 18psi on the gauge!

 

[bison]

18-19 degrees to maximize boost with 93 octane.

 

[MyBoosta]

18-19 degrees to maximize boost with 93 octane.

Hello Bison,

Is that Base and Wot OR 18-19 on both?

Also what percentage of fuel would you recommend?

Thanks

 

[SloGN]

hell my car pulls like a mofo @ 20 psi @ 16 degrees of timing with ported heads of course

 

[SloGN]

You're 87 and my 86's "best" times and MPH are Soooooo Close. Gotta love the way those vigilante converters mph, huh!!

dave your 117 mph pass did you lock the convertor up?

my best mph to date is only 115

i ran a 11.72 over the weekend @ 20 psi of boost @ 16 degrees of timing with a 1.64 60ft @ 113 mph also had a 10.7 air fuel ratio

 

[ES1]

I guess I'm reading this different.
With your MODs without race gas & alky you are not going to run 12s.
The guys that run 12s on pump gas are mid 11 second cars on race gas.
You have a high to mid 13 second pump gas car if in good tune.

 

[TURBOTOMZ]

I had a Pt-54, 16-18 degrees timing, exhaust, 3000 stall, not ported,
only the valve covers has been off for new valve springs, stock intercooler,
20 PSI ON PUMP GAS, NO ALCOHOL, 2.2-2.3 60 FT , 12.39 111mph.
Nitto DR, which doesnt hook, stock suspension, only KYB shocks.
With a better turbo, youll have no problems meeting your expectations

 

[Mike70gtx]

If you want to run 93, the alky can make a huge difference. I was told by someone that the Caspers knock guage "is worthless" end quote. I have one and it looks nice. I'll peg it in the red and my scanmaster won't register any knock. I go totally by my scanmaster. Could someone re-explain to me why?

 

[MyBoosta]

I guess I'm reading this different.
With your MODs without race gas & alky you are not going to run 12s.
The guys that run 12s on pump gas are mid 11 second cars on race gas.
You have a high to mid 13 second pump gas car if in good tune.

Mr. ES1,

Based on my current mods and stock tire situation, are you saying that I may only be able to manage 13's on pump gas? I've seen stock GN's run 13.90's...are you sure all I have is a high to mid 13sec car?

Wow, I don't know about that. I could be wrong, but I don't know!

To me, it feels faster than a high 13sec car, but who knows, you may be right. In Chicago, I used to see GN's run 12's on street tires back in the early to mid 90's when I raced them with my 5.0 stang. I am not sure if they were running 93 or higher octane, but I do know they had street tires.
I never bother to ask those guys about any mods since I was a 5.0 guy. Back then, a GN was too expensive to buy especially for new college guy. Therefore, I drove and raced stangs...but I always liked GN's.

Thanks:biggrin:

 

[slamming 6]

You have more than enough to run 12.60-12.90s just need to learn how to lunch the car.dont over heat the tires on the burn out that will cause more wheel spin just 15 to 20 seconds in second gear will do.I have run a 12.68 @ 106 shifting at 5400 rpm,my combo-blue tops,reds 93,cold air intake,hooker cat back,duttweiler neck stock intercooler,upper and lowers,245-15 regular radials,at night dont know any info on weather like temp ect,ect. ran a 12.42 as it is in the sig.

 

[TurboTnZ06]

With the mods u listed, I'd add a TE44 turbo and a bigger stock location intercooler. That is the only way to deep 12's on pump gas with a good tune with stock heads and cam. Now, to make it easier to go mid 12's, I'd bowl port the factory heads and maybe do a cam as well. Something in the 206 to 212 range. I'm running a 210/210 on 110 BHR right now. Plenty for tens...

I have a ten second race trim Buick. However, on pump gas and 17 psi boost I put down 403 rwhp and 545 rwtq. I ran turbo Supra style low 12's @ 119-124 mph on street tires with race gas and tune. It was scary sideways. The tires are 225 60 ZR 15 yokohama AVS. Get some 235-60 M/T drag radials at least.

My mods are here: Garages > LC2nLS6's Garage - FQuick.com

 

[ES1]

I could be wrong but here is my position.

You need around a 1.8 60 foot & 106 MPH to run 12s.

I feel it is going to be hard to 60 foot with the 215s.
You need to leave with about 5psi to get a good 60 foot on a stock setup.
I doubt you tires will hold at 5psi.

Try to leave with no boost and then you don't have the MPH cause it is going to take more than 106MPH leaving with no boost to = 12s.

Your setup will be close to 12s if not in the 12s with stickey tires.

Now the tune, you will probably have to run close to 20psi to obtain a 106MPH.
That's hard to do without getting knock, that's why we had race gas / alky.

 

[TurboDave]

dave your 117 mph pass did you lock the convertor up?

my best mph to date is only 115

i ran a 11.72 over the weekend @ 20 psi of boost @ 16 degrees of timing with a 1.64 60ft @ 113 mph also had a 10.7 air fuel ratio

Yes, when at a 1/4 track I have the chip lock at WOT at or near 85-88 mph and it always bettered the ulocked mph by 3mph.
Locking it at a 1/8 track hurt mph, every run, no matter how late I locked it.

 

[neat]

I think you are there now. I've been 13.3 @ 101 with a very lightly modded Regal. Here's what I have done, if it's not mentioned it is stock. The car has 123K on it right now.

-removed one screen from MAF
-test pipe in place of catalytic converter
-adjustable waste gate rod
-Walbro 340 fuel pump, on stock wiring
-Kenne Bell chip from way back in 1988. The original owner bought the chip shortly after he bought the car.
-RJC power plate
-RJC boost controller
-275 BFG radial TA's. The normal street tires, not drag radials. The cars best 60 foot time was actually on the stock size tires, 215's.
-Casper's audible knock alert

For the 13.3 run, I had 100 octane in the tank and was at about 18 PSI. With any more boost it would pop/backfire into the intake so I was stuck at 18 PSI. I've ran it on 18 PSI on 93 with no problems ever since, so I don't think the 100 octane was doing anything for me. The popping in the intake seemed to get worse after I installed the power plate, and the boost controller is getting me a little spike that I never had when using the stock set-up and the adjustable waste gate rod so I don't think either of those items are helping me out too much.

The car normally 60's in the high 1.9 range leaving on the foot brake with no boost. Just a little brake stand to stall the converter and go on green. 13.4 to 13.6 is the normal time for the car. On the 13.3 run, I left off the foot brake with about 3 PSI boost. The track was hooking pretty well and dead hooking netted me a 1.83 sixty foot time and a 13.3 @ 101. The car's best 60 foot time is a 1.81, and that was done on the narrower 215 series BFG tires. I thought for sure I would be able to get in the 1.7's going to a 275, but I haven't been able to best the 1.81 yet.

I think the popping is from the stock 123K valve springs. When it pops, it pegs my boost gauge which means that the intake valve must be open when the spark plug fires. There's no other way I can see for the intake manifold pressure to spike that high for a second like it is doing now. With some new valve springs, and a few more PSI, 12's should be a piece of cake. A newer chip would probably work wonders as well.

Since you already have more mods than I do, I think a high 12 is in the bag. Have you ran it yet?

 

[bison]

Hello Bison,

Is that Base and Wot OR 18-19 on both?

Also what percentage of fuel would you recommend?

Thanks

This is WOT. You should tune for the best mph on the fuel ratio. Peak power will be around 12:1 but the leaner you go the more of a chance of detonation. A slightly rich mixture will prevent detonation and allow a little more boost. You need a good scan tool to veriofy a/f ratios and monitor detonation. Another thing to keep in mind is that you will hear different timing numbers from a lot of people 16-24 degrees typically. They all could be correct. I have found that the stock balancer interrupter ring is usually off a few degrees causing a slight error in the timing. I would run it rich and get the boost up as high as you can. Then you can back off in .5 psi increments on the fp to pick up power. You have to watch for knock retard the whole time you do this.

 

[MyBoosta]

I think you are there now. I've been 13.3 @ 101 with a very lightly modded Regal. Here's what I have done, if it's not mentioned it is stock. The car has 123K on it right now.

-removed one screen from MAF
-test pipe in place of catalytic converter
-adjustable waste gate rod
-Walbro 340 fuel pump, on stock wiring
-Kenne Bell chip from way back in 1988. The original owner bought the chip shortly after he bought the car.
-RJC power plate
-RJC boost controller
-275 BFG radial TA's. The normal street tires, not drag radials. The cars best 60 foot time was actually on the stock size tires, 215's.
-Casper's audible knock alert

For the 13.3 run, I had 100 octane in the tank and was at about 18 PSI. With any more boost it would pop/backfire into the intake so I was stuck at 18 PSI. I've ran it on 18 PSI on 93 with no problems ever since, so I don't think the 100 octane was doing anything for me. The popping in the intake seemed to get worse after I installed the power plate, and the boost controller is getting me a little spike that I never had when using the stock set-up and the adjustable waste gate rod so I don't think either of those items are helping me out too much.

The car normally 60's in the high 1.9 range leaving on the foot brake with no boost. Just a little brake stand to stall the converter and go on green. 13.4 to 13.6 is the normal time for the car. On the 13.3 run, I left off the foot brake with about 3 PSI boost. The track was hooking pretty well and dead hooking netted me a 1.83 sixty foot time and a 13.3 @ 101. The car's best 60 foot time is a 1.81, and that was done on the narrower 215 series BFG tires. I thought for sure I would be able to get in the 1.7's going to a 275, but I haven't been able to best the 1.81 yet.

I think the popping is from the stock 123K valve springs. When it pops, it pegs my boost gauge which means that the intake valve must be open when the spark plug fires. There's no other way I can see for the intake manifold pressure to spike that high for a second like it is doing now. With some new valve springs, and a few more PSI, 12's should be a piece of cake. A newer chip would probably work wonders as well.

Since you already have more mods than I do, I think a high 12 is in the bag. Have you ran it yet?

Hello Neat,

No, I haven't ran it yet. I am just in the process of putting some of the pieces together. Pieces like: new plugs (Autolite 24), fresh Mobil 1 and PF-52 oil filter, a new Fuel filter, and a new aluminum maf pipe that should arrive today for my homemade CAI kit.

I've been reading inputs such as yours, adjusting/playing with my T+ while keeping a close eye on that dorky Knock gauge and/or listening for pingin'.

I know that many here said that 17-18* of timing should be the max on 93, but it seems that my car likes more. My T+ is set on "no change" on the timing knob, which means timing is21* low gear and 19*high gear) based on the parameter set on the Extender Chip. While driving and stabbing it, the second green light on the knock gauge barely comes on. I know that is it not the best way to see what is going on inside the motor, but that's all I have for now. I did LEAN it out a little and the car revved up like no other, the boost flashed to 20psi and the Knock gauge flashed ALL the lights So I added the fuel back (4% richer). Heck, I don't even have an adj fuel press regulator...just a hotwired 340 walboro pump and 50lbs injectors. I was told that the T+ increases the fuel demads by increasing the injector pulse...is that okay?

The car feels good. Could it be a result of good power, cold tires, cold ground or all the above who knows, but it does feel faster than a high 13sec car. Then again, my butt meter could be wrong

Thanks

 

[murphster]

I used to see the first green light flash and felt that it was bad and quickly lifted thinking that a head gasket was about to pop. Well, today I was told by two respected sources that green is good, yellow is okay and RED means lift on the gas and revisit tuning parameters, fuel and so on.
I was also told that I can run my car until about the second to third Yellow light before any bad happens and a revisit to my T+ would be necessary.

There's no such thing as good knock. While you are unlikely to do immediate damage with a low amount of knock (such as the green and yellow lights on the knock gauge), prolonged knock will likely shorten the lifetime of the engine. You should always tune for no knock. If you want to tune aggresively, you could add timing until the car just starts to knock and then just take out a little timing so that the knock goes away. Or do the same thing with fuel by taking out fuel until knock starts and then add a little fuel until it goes away. You don't leave much safety margin, but you can feel like you are getting the most out of the car. You may even see that the car is just as fast by adding more fuel and thus you are running the same with an extra safety margin. Same with timing, if you don't get faster adding it in, might as well run the lowest timing you can.

I see the lights on the knock gauge in a different aspect. If you saw only a green light, you didn't damage anything. If you saw a yellow light, you probably didn't damage anything. If you saw a red light, there's a chance you may have damaged something. If you made it to round two and the second revolution of green, yellow, and red well, lets just leave it at that.

IMO, I don't think its possible for a stock turbo, stock engine car to run 12s on pump gas and 215 tires. With alky or race gas, no problem as I've seen pacecarta do it many times. Without alky or race gas, even with drag radials it may be tough to hit 12s, but it may be possible. I'd bet your car will run mid 13s on a stock turbo with 215s and pump gas, and thats if you get a decent launch.

If you are serious about running your car, I'd get a line lock to help do your burnouts and keep the rear brakes cool so you can hold more boost at the line.

Also, watch your O2 sensor readings in addition to looking at the knock gauge. You need to look at boost levels, fuel, and timing. If you have higher timing such as 21/19 on pump gas, adding or taking away fuel may not do anything, as you don't have enough octane to run that timing at a given boost level. You may need to lower your boost some or take out some timing. A lot of times, you'll see lean knock come up at the end of gears as the rpms rise as opposed to quick knock from too much timing or boost. Each car is a little different so you have to find out what your car likes.

 

[MyBoosta]

Okay Murphster and the rest of the gang,

I read many of your replies at least three times. Tonight, after changing the oil, fuel filter and adjusting my homemade CAI, I went out to experiment for about 2.5 hours.

I played with the T+ trying different settings until finally, I found a setting that did not allow the 3rd yellow stay on the Knock gauge.
According to the intructions for the Extender chip, my timing was set at 21/19...93. So, I took my T+ and my Extender chip charts and tried different things. I tell you what, those 215's do not stand a chance, I was rolling out of the gate then nailing the car, and as soon as it made about 8psi, the tires spun like crazy.

Run after run after run, I found that my car liked: MAF{Base} 15% rich MAF{Wot} 6% richer & SPARK{Base} -2* retarded Spark{Wot} -4* retarded. At this setting the car felt pretty good, especially since I hardly turn the ignition off during this testing/tuning session. I know she was "heat soaked" but ironically, the temp gauge never got passed 180* and the oil Press stayed at 30-32 idle and 65-70 cruising. Boost gauge flashed 18psi on two instances, but for the most part it was steady at 16psi.

I know that I am leaving some on the table by running 93 oct and using such a rich setting, but at least it's safer. The third yellow flashes, then it quickly goes away. I did hit the red lights on three to four ocassions but each time I quickly lifted on the throttle...so I hope I did not hurt anything.

What do you guys think of my tuning methods?:smile: