Paging Lee Thompson - Oil Pump Pics

[Blazer406]

Does the engine sound like it is low on oil pressure? I would try another gauge for the heck of it. Doesn't sound like your problem is a restriction....

All else fails....Listen to Leeeeoo

Well... I've only let the engine run... idling mostly... for maybe 1 hour total run-time.... since I put it back in the car....I haven't let it run any once it was hot and noticed the oil pressure was 5psi or less..... technically 5 psi is "nearly enough" at a no load idle condition..... I wouldn't expect too many unusual noises at 5 psi idle. I hope to get my timing cover back on tonight.... possibly cranked again? May take two evenings..... but I will prevail! ... LOL .... this beast is really trying my patience.....

I bought some SAE 50 Valvoline VR1 oil to "try" to break everything in......maybe my oil pressure will be good with that oil?

One thing I noticed last night when I took the valve cover off..... there was some milky oil in the valve cover.....I had just (on Saturday) pulled the intake off....and pulled my poorboy factory hyd. roller conversion out.... and put in the Morrel lifters and new pushrods. I did this because I wanted to see if it was possible.... that the short factory hyd. roller lifters were sinking too low or raising too high in the lifter bores and hemmoraging my oil pressure away. My careful measuring says it shouldn't be an issue.... but hey... I'm becoming desperate to fix this oil pressure issue. Anyway... when I removed the intake with the engine in the car, there was a small amount of clear liquid that made it's way out of the intake and down thru the lifter valley. (I am running only pure water for coolant.... no antifreeze). I had assumed it was only a very small quantity of gas from the fuel rails, but after finding the milk under the valve cover.... makes me wonder if that wasn't some trapped water that drained out of the intake when I busted the seal..... The milky oil didn't really show up much on the dip stick.... it might have had a little color. I am wondering at this point... if there was enough water in the oil.... that it compromised my viscosity.... and that is where the oil pressure went..... like the more the engine ran...... the better it got mixed in the oil.... Anyway..... I really haven't found anything that would suggest that my oil pump wouldn't do plenty of oil flow at idle..... so that is my reason for questioning the water in the oil. Maybe when I get the cover back on it.... and oil changed.... she will turn around?

Oh.... I do listen to Leeeeeooo...... he tells me "Now Brian.... don't try to overthink this......This stuff isn't rocket science"......LOL

 

[gnxtc2]

The milk shake under the valve covers is probably condensation.

Who put together the motor? Where the bearings checked for proper thickness? What I'm saying, maybe your crank was cut .010 under and the a standard bearing was stamped as .010. A mismatched bearing could be installed on one of the mains. Seen this before.

At start up, the oil is thicker hence the higher pressure. You are bleeding oil pressure somewhere.

Could you post a pic of all the lifters? What cam do you have, is it a small base circle cam?

How hard is it to pull out the oil gallery plugs? If you can get them out, shine a light down the oil gallery, rotate the cam and see if you can see light as the lifter comes up out of the bore. The light might shine downward if the roller unshrouds the gallery. Are roller lifters shrouded?

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[Blazer406]

The milk shake under the valve covers is probably condensation.

Who put together the motor? Where the bearings checked for proper thickness? What I'm saying, maybe your crank was cut .010 under and the a standard bearing was stamped as .010. A mismatched bearing could be installed on one of the mains. Seen this before.

At start up, the oil is thicker hence the higher pressure. You are bleeding oil pressure somewhere.

Could you post a pic of all the lifters? What cam do you have, is it a small base circle cam?

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

I put the motor together this time. I have been battling the oil pressure issue since it was first assembled (not by me) about 4 hours of run-time ago.... which in calendar days is about 6-8 months....... got a family.... ......anyway..... as soon as I started it for the 1st time.... I knew within 30 min I had an oil pressure issue. I pulled it out and flipped the motor over and checked my rods and mains for clearance..... crank has never been turned.... std/std turbo rolled fillet crank. Clearances were excessive.... most mains around .003..... most rods between .0025 and .003. I thought... that's my problem so I ordered a set of .001 bearings and an extra set of std rod bearings and had them coated. I installed all the bearings and got the clearances where I wanted them (everything between .0015 and .002). I primed the motor up and re-installed in the car. 30 minutes idling and 20 mile (easy) drive later.... little to no idle oil pressure..... I said $%#@!!@#$ I must have missed something..... so I pulled the motor again. This time... I disassembled it completely. I found a spun #2 cam bearing - then later found something in the oil port.... could have been a dirt dobber nest/larvae.... $%#@$# thinking back... I remember when the cam bearing spun when I tried to crank the car for the first time. I had just put on a new high torque mini-starter... and it was not shimmed properly... and while cranking... it acted like it locked up..... just for a split second.... like you were trying to crank a motor with too much initial timing....... anyway....got the machinist to fix the spun cam bearing.... and I thouroghly cleaned the block and poked something thru every oil galley and passage. I reassembled it with new .001 bearings and checked each bearing dry with plastigauge. It came out to .0015 on everything.....it might be a touch looser than that on a few, but closer to .0015 than .002. Crank and cam spin over nicely with no "tight spots".... just as it should be.

Cam is a comp cams hyd roller same kind Mike @ FT sells except with some more aggressive XFI lobes on it. 218/218 @ .050.....I have tried two different types of lifters. Initially I tried the poor-boy factory hyd roller conversion using the shorty 60 deg V6 lifters. They seemed to work, but with this oil pressure issue, I decided to try the Morrel's that TA Performance sells. They are a shielded foot lifter.... similar foot to the stock hydraulic rollers. That is what is currently in the motor now. After installing the Morrel's Saturday.... and still having the oil pressure issue..... I pulled the front cover..... oil pump looks decent. With the booster plate and the HV kit..... this thing ought to not have a problem making oil pressure hot idling.

My pressure gauge is a small liquid filled fuel pressure gauge I bought from Summit racing. I had never installed it (yet) on the end of the fuel rail.... with an adaptor..... so I decided to add a tee to the brass block the turbo feed line attaches to... and put it there temporarily until I install my oil pressure sending unit. I just peer over the turbo and see what my oil pressure is.... for now at least.

My gauge

 

[STP]

Brian, even at idle, you should be able to hear if it's low on pressure...Bring it over here one weekend and we'll get it straight. Leeo has taught me alot over the years. Not a nicer guy on the planet!

Put a different gauge on it and rule that out. Do you know how your machinist installed the front cam bearing? Did you use a gasket on the pickup tube?

 

[Blazer406]

Brian, even at idle, you should be able to hear if it's low on pressure...Bring it over here one weekend and we'll get it straight. Leeo has taught me alot over the years. Not a nicer guy on the planet!

Put a different gauge on it and rule that out. Do you know how your machinist installed the front cam bearing? Did you use a gasket on the pickup tube?

Thanks for the offer. I might take you up on that at some point....... up until a week or two ago... I haven't done anything quickly ..... too many other things to consume copious amounts of time ..... however.... in the past week and a half... I have completely assembled my engine.....checked all the clearances and everything... installed it... got it running...... pulled the intake... swapped lifter setups...... got it running again.... now got the timing cover off....maybe get a good start tonight on getting it back together. I am frustrated for the time I have spent in the past week and a half. I will enjoy it soo much when I do get her going.

I bought another gauge tonight to rule that out.

I did use a new gasket on the p/u tube and loctite'd the bolts.

I don't know how he installed the cam bearing...... but he does have all the right tools and he has done these motors before along with hundreds of other engines.... so I trust he got it in there right....

 

[gnxtc2]

Correct timing cover gasket?

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[Blazer406]

Update

I made a couple general assumptions.

1.) the gears are relatively flat.
2.) the spacer plate is relatively flat.

I reinstalled both gears and set a scale ontop of each gear.....and measured with a feeler gauge how much the gear sticks up over the plane of the spacer plate. Refer back to the pic of the booster plate and the wear marks from only one gear. This happens to be the drive gear...... that made that wear scuff mark.....and it happens to be sticking up between .005 and .006......the "driven" gear is only sticking up about .0025". That means "if" the oil pump clearances were set up by the drive gear.......and it was set at say .002"...... then the "driven" gear had about .005". Is this enough end play to hose up my oil pressure?

Jerryl you may be right my friend.......

 

[Blazer406]

Correct timing cover gasket?

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

Just an over the counter felpro from Autozone......

 

[ijames]

Brian, the problem with the pipe plug trick under the water pump is that just loosening and tightening the water pump bolts flexes/deforms the cover enough to change the cam end play, so you have to set that with the pump in place and if you ever change the pump you have to reset the end play.

 

[Blazer406]

Brian, the problem with the pipe plug trick under the water pump is that just loosening and tightening the water pump bolts flexes/deforms the cover enough to change the cam end play, so you have to set that with the pump in place and if you ever change the pump you have to reset the end play.

That's easy Carl..... you make a torque plate for the water pump....... :biggrin: Where there is a will.... there is a way........just thinking out-of-the-box.

 

[STP]

I made a couple general assumptions.

1.) the gears are relatively flat.
2.) the spacer plate is relatively flat.

I reinstalled both gears and set a scale ontop of each gear.....and measured with a feeler gauge how much the gear sticks up over the plane of the spacer plate. Refer back to the pic of the booster plate and the wear marks from only one gear. This happens to be the drive gear...... that made that wear scuff mark.....and it happens to be sticking up between .005 and .006......the "driven" gear is only sticking up about .0025". That means "if" the oil pump clearances were set up by the drive gear.......and it was set at say .002"...... then the "driven" gear had about .005". Is this enough end play to hose up my oil pressure?

Jerryl you may be right my friend.......

I would say yes.....You might consider ruling out the booster plate and blueprinting a stock pump. A stock blueprinted pump is plenty capable...In my opinion of course. There are plenty of guys smarter than me that have good success with the booster plates, however.

 

[Jerryl]

Brian, the problem with the pipe plug trick under the water pump is that just loosening and tightening the water pump bolts flexes/deforms the cover enough to change the cam end play, so you have to set that with the pump in place and if you ever change the pump you have to reset the end play.

So, I was thinking about this last night.
The problem that IJames describes is only one of the many.
The second problem is the concentricity.
The bumper better be lined up with the center of the cam, or you are asking for trouble.
Obviously, the best way to do this is with the billet cams, but some members have run with the spring-loaded roller cam button on a roller cam without issues.

Back to the oil pressure issue. . . :tongue:

......That means "if" the oil pump clearances were set up by the drive gear.......and it was set at say .002"...... then the "driven" gear had about .005". Is this enough end play to hose up my oil pressure?

Jerryl you may be right my friend.......

Hope that correcting the end clearance adjustment takes care of your nightmares.

FWIW; I purchased one of the oil pump gasket sets from TA.
Not sure yet what I will need for thickness, but let me know what you come up with for gasket thickness requirement.
You may need one I will never use.

 

[jpwalt1987]

I made a couple general assumptions.

1.) the gears are relatively flat.
2.) the spacer plate is relatively flat.

I reinstalled both gears and set a scale ontop of each gear.....and measured with a feeler gauge how much the gear sticks up over the plane of the spacer plate. Refer back to the pic of the booster plate and the wear marks from only one gear. This happens to be the drive gear...... that made that wear scuff mark.....and it happens to be sticking up between .005 and .006......the "driven" gear is only sticking up about .0025". That means "if" the oil pump clearances were set up by the drive gear.......and it was set at say .002"...... then the "driven" gear had about .005". Is this enough end play to hose up my oil pressure?

Jerryl you may be right my friend.......

Did you take into account the thickness of the gasket when measuring endplay?? I think that a stock felpro gasket for the oil pump is .008 thick.

 

[GSTOY]

I just had my engine rebuilt over the summer and I run a stock oil pump with 10w30, but I did do the Earl Brown mods, on startup I have between 65 and 80 psi, hot in gear I have between 30 and 40 psi. I spent alot of time cleaning up the cover and radiusing the bends. I also run a turboluber remote filter with the larger filter, aftermarket oil cooler and -10 lines plumbing it all together.

Steve

 

[Blazer406]

Did you take into account the thickness of the gasket when measuring endplay?? I think that a stock felpro gasket for the oil pump is .008 thick.

The guy that built up my pump and set the clearances.....initially had the different thickness gaskets.... because I can see 2 or 3 of them on there.... they look thin as paper.

What I measured wasn't necessarily end play...... just a comparison on how much each gear stuck out of the case. The mere difference here is my basis for the theory (Jerryl's) that if they are different heights.... that I got to be loosing efficiency on the "lower" gear.

I'm just asking all you guys..... if .005" end play (assuming the drive gear was at .002) on the driven gear is "enough" endplay to cause the oil pressure issues I am seeing.

IMHO.... (I might be overthinking this as Leeeeeoooo would say)..... "if" I have .005" endplay cold on the driven gear.... and .002" end play on the drive gear.....I got two issues happening at the elevated engine temp..... this endplay could be growing? ..... and the oil viscosity is going the other way..... thinner and thinner.......... compounding the issue.

I'm just desperate to find the "smoking gun" as to why my motor has crap oil pressure hot idling.....

 

[Blazer406]

I just had my engine rebuilt over the summer and I run a stock oil pump with 10w30, but I did do the Earl Brown mods, on startup I have between 65 and 80 psi, hot in gear I have between 30 and 40 psi. I spent alot of time cleaning up the cover and radiusing the bends. I also run a turboluber remote filter with the larger filter, aftermarket oil cooler and -10 lines plumbing it all together.

Steve

You want to come down and we can hold a candelight vigil around my car..... and sing kumbaya.....I am up to try nearly anything to get some hot idle oil pressure..... LOL

 

[Blazer406]

So, I was thinking about this last night.
The problem that IJames describes is only one of the many.
The second problem is the concentricity.
The bumper better be lined up with the center of the cam, or you are asking for trouble.
Obviously, the best way to do this is with the billet cams, but some members have run with the spring-loaded roller cam button on a roller cam without issues.

I was merely taking about a small hole for which you could dial indicate thru to the cam sensor drive gear...... off center from the centerline of the camshaft...... just so you can easily set the end play.

 

[STP]

"IMHO.... (I might be overthinking this as Leeeeeoooo would say)..... "if" I have .005" endplay cold on the driven gear.... and .002" end play on the drive gear.....I got two issues happening at the elevated engine temp..... this endplay could be growing? ..... and the oil viscosity is going the other way..... thinner and thinner.......... compounding the issue"


Makes sense to me....

 

[mtocrs1]

Camshaft Bearings

I fought this same issue 13-14 years back. I rebuilt the engine three times and every time after 30 minutes of driving oil pressure would be well below 5psi. Clearances were always good. I could not figure out what the F#$@ was going on. I tried multiple front covers and oil pump tricks, nothing helped. I finally paid the machine shop to assemble the engine. Same exact issue! It finally came down to the camshaft bearings. The machine shop was installing the wrong ones. I can’t remember all the details but from what I do remember they were installing pre 1979 3.8 block cam bearings instead of post 1979 cam bearings. Like I said I don’t remember the details but I do remember the wrong cam bearings were used. Once the correct camshaft bearings were installed hot oil pressure was 20-23psi at idle in drive. You may want to look into this? Just a thought.

Disclaimer: This was almost 15 years ago. The machine shop could have been full of crap. However, new camshaft bearings = good oil pressure =

 

[Blazer406]

I fought this same issue 13-14 years back. I rebuilt the engine three times and every time after 30 minutes of driving oil pressure would be well below 5psi. Clearances were always good. I could not figure out what the F#$@ was going on. I tried multiple front covers and oil pump tricks, nothing helped. I finally paid the machine shop to assemble the engine. Same exact issue! It finally came down to the camshaft bearings. The machine shop was installing the wrong ones. I can’t remember all the details but from what I do remember they were installing pre 1979 3.8 block cam bearings instead of post 1979 cam bearings. Like I said I don’t remember the details but I do remember the wrong cam bearings were used. Once the correct camshaft bearings were installed hot oil pressure was 20-23psi at idle in drive. You may want to look into this? Just a thought.

Disclaimer: This was almost 15 years ago. The machine shop could have been full of crap. However, new camshaft bearings = good oil pressure =

I don't have the part number handy.... but it checks out over at GN TType.org and also on here searching on which cam bearings people are running.

After talking with Tim at T/A Performance this morning..... the oil pump end play issue I have is definately suspect. I get it fixed and see what we have got.......and go from there......got one of their oil pump shim assortments coming....