Paging Lee Thompson - Oil Pump Pics

[rw87tt]

I checked my thrust clearance by bolting and torqueing the boost plate to the oil pump with a standard gasket and checking the gear thrust with a feeler guage through the discharge hole where the gears are exposed. In your case you would have to do it with your high volume gears, spacer and gaskets. I believe the clearance calls for something like .002 to .003 and think some people think .003 is too much. I set mine at .0025. I had to sand my gears on glass to get that clearance using a .005 gasket. The thrust and gear side clearance are really important. You probably know that already. I hope you find the problem.

 

[Blazer406]

I guess the good news is.............. is I will have a decent understanding of what makes these engines tick...... and what to check closely..... at least on my stock based junk.... LOL

 

[Just a Six??]

I checked my thrust clearance by bolting and torqueing the boost plate to the oil pump with a standard gasket and checking the gear thrust with a feeler guage through the discharge hole where the gears are exposed. In your case you would have to do it with your high volume gears, spacer and gaskets. I believe the clearance calls for something like .002 to .003 and think some people think .003 is too much. I set mine at .0025. I had to sand my gears on glass to get that clearance using a .005 gasket. The thrust and gear side clearance are really important. You probably know that already. I hope you find the problem.

I have done 4 like that & everyone was great. If one gear is a few thous longer just put it on sandpaper & glass & take it down a bit so they are the same size. I just did one last week. Took a few hours but they are the same now Start with some 80 then 100-200-400 etc

 

[earlbrown]

..... at least on my stock based junk.... LOL

You need to get back to basics. First take those long gears, and that spacer plate, walk out your back door and throw them as far as you can. Then go out there, pick them up, and throw them again.

Get a plain ole nothing special Melling replacement pump from any of the fast food houses. It will come with a gasket that measures between .007" and .0075". The Felpro gasket kit (TCS45930 comes with one that's .006" to .0065". Since your cover's used the gears will sit just a little bit lower than a new one so one of those two gaskets will get you going.
Set your end clearance and that will get you a good baseline.

If you've got time and the tools follow my recipe and that will get you an even gooder baseline.


If you're covers set up like above and you don't have good oil pressure that will tell you that it's time to do an exploratory.

 

[Blazer406]

You need to get back to basics. First take those long gears, and that spacer plate, walk out your back door and throw them as far as you can. Then go out there, pick them up, and throw them again.

Get a plain ole nothing special Melling replacement pump from any of the fast food houses. It will come with a gasket that measures between .007" and .0075". The Felpro gasket kit (TCS45930 comes with one that's .006" to .0065". Since your cover's used the gears will sit just a little bit lower than a new one so one of those two gaskets will get you going.
Set your end clearance and that will get you a good baseline.

If you've got time and the tools follow my recipe and that will get you an even gooder baseline.


If you're covers set up like above and you don't have good oil pressure that will tell you that it's time to do an exploratory.

I have ordered a shim kit from T/A performance to have many gasket thicknesses to help get the one I might need. I will get a stock set of replacement gears and go from there......

Thanks Earl.

I've read your "how-to" ...... seems like it includes a few beers in the process? If that is an integral part of the recipe.... I might can follow that.... :biggrin:

 

[asloan5]

any chance of the spring behind the oil bypass plug in the fiter housing is weak and gets worse when it gets warm ? I plugged mine and did the earl brown method to the timing covr. At hot 160-190 degrees in gear I have 20lbs of pressure at idle with 10-30w vavoline racing vr1 oil.

 

[Blazer406]

any chance of the spring behind the oil bypass plug in the fiter housing is weak and gets worse when it gets warm ? I plugged mine and did the earl brown method to the timing covr. At hot 160-190 degrees in gear I have 20lbs of pressure at idle with 10-30w vavoline racing vr1 oil.

Anythings possible I guess.

I really feel like the different height of the two gears has uncovered my issue..... although I will check the bypass spring..... might shim it a little tighter......

 

[JDSfastGN]

It probably wouldn't make a difference and I didn't read everybodies replies but I dont remember my drive gears shaft being so far inset in the gear... It just looks strange. Other than that it looks normal. I could be mistaken and they are all like that but I thought mine was almost flush with the bottom of the gear

EDIT: after a quick google image search I found it to be normal, I just didn't remember it looking like that.

 

[earlbrown]

I have ordered a shim kit from T/A performance to have many gasket thicknesses to help get the one I might need. I will get a stock set of replacement gears and go from there......

Thanks Earl.

I've read your "how-to" ...... seems like it includes a few beers in the process? If that is an integral part of the recipe.... I might can follow that.... :biggrin:

I'd put that T/A shim kit in with the parts that need throwing. Since your gears are higher than the gear surface (like they're supposed to be, you don't need those flimsy pieces of plastic.

Beers are an extremely important ingredient. Doing a cover without beers would be like following a cake recipe and leaving off the icing.

any chance of the spring behind the oil bypass plug in the fiter housing is weak and gets worse when it gets warm ? I plugged mine and did the earl brown method to the timing covr. At hot 160-190 degrees in gear I have 20lbs of pressure at idle with 10-30w vavoline racing vr1 oil.

That spring won't mess with oil pressure as it's there to decide what oil goes around the filter. If it were to have an effect it might actually raise the PSI a couple of pounds as it'd be bypassing a flow restriction (the filter media)

 

[gnxtc2]

I would check your front cam bearing clearance.

Shoot for .001-.002 clearance for your end play on your gears.

I bet you'll find your problem with the front cam bearing clearance.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[Blazer406]

Update

I started doing Earl's mods and polishing up the holes and edges of the holes..... when I decided to plastigauge the new stock gears against my booster plate.....and a .006 gasket. I decided on the .006 gasket because I took a scale and layed across the top of the gears... and took a feeler gauge and trial and error until I found what thickness feeler gauge it took to start fitting snug between bottom of scale and the pump housing. It worked out to around .0025-.003 ...... so I decided to try the .006 gasket (.003 sticking out of the housing + .006 gasket = theoretical .003" end play) ..... so I put me some red plastigauge on each gear.... and re-assembled it and tightened it down tight with a nut driver.... (I dunno how tight one can get those bolts with a nut driver... but it can't be too much torque)..... anyway.... I pulled it back apart.... and sure enough.... around .003 .... might even be slightly under .003 ...... perfect!...... so then I decided to check the old tall gear setup and spacer plate..... I installed the taller gears.....the spacer plate.... the same gasket(s) that were on there.... and tightened everything back down....... then took it back apart... well the plastigauge didn't even look disturbed. So that means my end play was more than .006.... by a decent margin..... because the red plastigauge is good for .002 -.006. So.... I measured the gasket thickness... that came off the spacer plate...... like 0.018 - .020 ...... going back and doing the math..... it likely had .013-.015 end play....... I'm quite sure that this is enough end play to ruin my hot idle oil pressure.....

Well..... at least I feel like I have found "the smoking gun" to my oil pressure problems. I am looking to get it back going in the next few days..... hopefully!


BTW... going back with stock height gears.... and earls mods..... .003 end play....

 

[Blazer406]

I would check your front cam bearing clearance.

Shoot for .001-.002 clearance for your end play on your gears.

I bet you'll find your problem with the front cam bearing clearance.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

Cam bearing is brand new on the #1 and #2 bearing in my motor.... #3 and #4 was replaced about 3 hours of run-time ago...... so for all practical purposes.....it has all new cam bearings....

On the end play for the oil pump.... I'd have to machine the housing down ever so slightly to get the end play down anymore.... as the .006 gasket is the thinnest one I have. I haven't recieved the T/A Performance gasket assortment.... if there is a .005 in there... I might could get another .001 tighter I guess......

 

[GSTOY]

If their has been one thing I've learned about these engines, they published clearances for a reason....don't deviate and don't take anything for granted. Measure everything...just like cutting wood, measure twice, cut once.

 

[LOT]

gaskets

Cam bearing is brand new on the #1 and #2 bearing in my motor.... #3 and #4 was replaced about 3 hours of run-time ago...... so for all practical purposes.....it has all new cam bearings....

On the end play for the oil pump.... I'd have to machine the housing down ever so slightly to get the end play down anymore.... as the .006 gasket is the thinnest one I have. I haven't recieved the T/A Performance gasket assortment.... if there is a .005 in there... I might could get another .001 tighter I guess......

I believe they have every thickness from .002 and up. I have used those gaskets with great success. DO NOT throw them away. If anyone wants to throw them away--throw them my way.

 

[Jerryl]

...... as the .006 gasket is the thinnest one I have. I haven't recieved the T/A Performance gasket assortment.... if there is a .005 in there... I might could get another .001 tighter I guess......

The kit has the following thicknesses (in inches);
0.001
0.0015
0.002
0.003
0.005
0.0075
0.010

As far as end clearance;
My book calls for 0.002-0.006" stock.
Having said that, it also calls for 0.0003 -0.0018 main clearances.

Case and point, I agree with Billy.
I also like 0.001-0.002 end clearance with a higher than stock reving motor that has looser than medium target stock dimension stock main clearances. :tongue:

 

[Blazer406]

So you guys think it is possible that .013" - .015" end play could be a major player in my oil pressure issues?

 

[Jerryl]

So you guys think it is possible that .013" - .015" end play could be a major player in my oil pressure issues?

Not with 90W oil. :tongue:
As methodical as you are, I am confident you will solve your issue with the end clearance correction to 0.001-0.002.

(Why is there no spellcheck on this board? . . . . .)
I'll make you a bet;
If the end clearance correction takes care of it, you owe me a beer.
If it does not, I owe you a pitcher and some wings.

 

[Blazer406]

Not with 90W oil. :tongue:
As methodical as you are, I am confident you will solve your issue with the end clearance correction to 0.001-0.002.

(Why is there no spellcheck on this board? . . . . .)
I'll make you a bet;
If the end clearance correction takes care of it, you owe me a beer.
If it does not, I owe you a pitcher and some wings.

Deal!

I was running straight 30W oil thank you! Well..... if you get technical..... 4 qts of 30W Castrol.... and 1 qt of 40W Castrol (they didn't have any more 30W). I do have 5 qts of Valvoline 50Wt VR1 racing oil to "try"...... however I am fairly confident this is gonna fix it.... so I am tempted to put the 5 qts of 10W40 Castrol I have .... that I had already bought..... and was going to run after I took the 30W out......

 

[Just a Six??]

I believe they have every thickness from .002 and up. I have used those gaskets with great success. DO NOT throw them away. If anyone wants to throw them away--throw them my way.

On the instructions its says they are to be added to a stock paper gasket & not really made to run by themselves. Is that how you run the TA's??

 

[Steve V]

On the instructions its says they are to be added to a stock paper gasket & not really made to run by themselves. Is that how you run the TA's??

I have used them both ways. I have had no issues at all,several front covers. Parts need to be flat.