Preturbo Injection Test Run And Setup

[GNVYUS 1]

Got it installed and did some runs with and without it on the wideband. I'm running 22psi with 25 degrees of timing on a 98 octane mix. I run a straight Meth M15 from Alkycontrol post turbo and a 50/50 ( Meth/Water ) 2gph from Devils Own pre turbo.

Install is pretty simple though a couple of relay wire colors didn't match in the instructions and I had a dead battery two days later.
I have it turning on a tad after 15psi and have the bottle located near the mini battery to fit all this stuff in the engine bay. Both alky pumps are off the front bumper supports and the bottle to pump hose was super easy to plumb in since our cars have the openings in the radiator support. I have the nozzle on top of my chrome inlet pipe to evade any leaking issues, I tapped into the boost solenoid to get my ignition for the relay and had an extra nipple in the vacuum block open for the pressure switch.

Ideally I'd like to post a file from the Powerlogger but here's the best I can do since I don't have it.

The preturbo injection added a psi over my set 22psi of boost on my MBC and it barely made a difference on Air Fuel Ratio 11.6 to 11.5. The boost was more solid at 23psi as when I hit it, it stayed there without moving unlike the regular setup which fluctuated a little. Now I must say this is very unscientific since I'm looking at boost and the wideband in my right hand so .....

Since I'm not the datalogging nerd this needs to be done by someone who is to really see what's going on but so far the 1psi addition to total boost and a slight fatness in AF/R seems to say something goods going on. I have a dyno day planned on Oct 18th so we'll see what the wheels say.

I'm going to do more runs later but as I got done doing my last run I turned around and a Police Car was literally stopping sideways in front of me in my lane. I figured I'm dead as I had the radar detector unplugged since I needed the cig lighter for the wideband. As I slowly accept my fate he turns oddly right into the nearby street and I just slowly cruise by. :redface: This is a deserted 1/4 mile of road with just businesses, it's probably 10pm and I've never seen a Police car here ever.

 

[Sleeper-6]

OK, I get what you did, and it seems to be working for you. But I have to ask why? If you needed more alky woulden't it have been easier to upgrade to the dual nozzle kit for alkycontrol?

 

[JayC]

Pray you never have a backfire and you'll probably be replacing that turbo sooner than later.

 

[Royal-T-Ltd]

i would think you would do harm by spraying before the turbo- a fine mist or even drops hitting the impeller at 150,000[?] rpm couldnt be that good for it - like mentioned - Why not just add and additional nozzle or bump up the pressure - no need to reinvent the wheel:redface: JMHO Like Jay mentioned, hopefully a backfire doesnt screw up anything, even the MAF

 

[Boost231]

great post. i would like to see more data as far as temps

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I'm not reinventing the wheel, actually this has been done since oh, WORLD WAR 2 PLANES!!!! They not only had water injection after the turbo but would talk about how it benefited the turbo to have the water enter the front side of it. Turbofabricator probably can elaborate more on this.

I've seen tons of posts and some dyno graphs that prove that this works and posts with people running over 50k miles that are still on the same turbo as long as you have
1) High pump pressure
2) Small nozzle to produce a fine mist
Be careful with spreading panic with stuff you might not have much or any experience with since this is exactly what happened with post turbo alky injection and we all know that works and recommend it literally to every GN.

Adding another post turbo nozzle isn't the same though it does help. Spraying the compressor wheel cools off the inlet charge at the comp wheel and allows it to act like a larger turbo pushing denser air instead of hotter/choppier air. It literally moves the compressor map over to the left. Winter comes to mind, you realize winter makes more power due to the colder/denser inlet air hitting the compressor, now think of what a super fine mist of Meth/Water can do?? This is the real cold air setup and actually costs almost the same. It's too bad someone else with more datalogging can do this so it wouldn't be so scary or experimental. I might have to just get Powerlogger if no one else steps in.

AIS ( Alcohol Injection Systems ) has great stories about pre turbo injection on old muscle cars, talk to them if you feel this is unproven or experimental.

Jay there are plenty of Mustangs on The Turbo Forums doing this. I'm surprised you aren't doing post and pre injection on the FI shop cars.

I really think Julio needs to add this to his lineup and show us the way since he's the alky guy with datalogging to support it. Hell, he's going to make $$ on this unlike me who's just being the guinea.

 

[TurboBuRick]

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[JayC]

Jay there are plenty of Mustangs on The Turbo Forums doing this. I'm surprised you aren't doing post and pre injection on the FI shop cars.

Since I was doing alcohol way before hardly anyone else on these cars (1989), Ive pretty much seen and done it all. I talked to Harry at Precision in length about doing this and he gave me a whole plethora of reasons it was a bad idea. I just took it as the gospel and never bothered trying it. If it works for you, great. I still think his reasoning is valid.. maybe his views have changed. Ill see him in a few weeks and ask him.

We have some new stuff in the works.. maybe Ill revisit it.

 

[3.8vsix]

I know this is not alky but, the 78 ot 83 turbo regals have the carb before the turbo?? This would be mixing gas into the turbo . I think I am right, someone might should verify. If I am right the factory would not have done this if it were dangerous.

 

[Dust]

DO claims less than 30 microns with their smaller nozzles. Find out what your air filter filters down to absolute. Tell me which is lower. I can promise a K&N is gonna hurt your turbo more than pre-compressor, and the dust can phase shift and suck out heat like W/A.

JayC, I think it would be interesting to know what Precision said. I know that alky has come a long way in the last 10 years, and I think that even in the time of the long precompressor thread on aquamist alot of things changed.

 

[Razor]

Water is heavier than dust. Now rocks are another story

The true answer is over time what the results are. I know from using smaller nozzles they are happeir with smaller lines. The larger the line to the nozzle the more it will dribble once the system is shut off.

Example using 3/16 tubing like whats used with an oil pressure guage vs 1/4 tubing. The smaller the tubing the faster it bleeds down, the less the amount of water. Look at the Aquamist systems with the smaller jets and size of tubing they use for example.

The dribble is substantially higher in density than the 30 micron. The 30 micron is while the system is spraying under pressure. My point is not when its spraying.. but once it activates and shuts down. And liquids like methanol are 21% thinner that water so that helps as well.

Time will tell what happens. Let alone we havent seen a performance(ET/RWHP) increase yet. So that has to be factored in the benefit vs risk.

 

[Dust]

I would agree with both counts, as it applies to GNs. I know DO has several dynos with I–4 turbo-diesels picking up 5 hp with just a pre-turbo nozzle added.

As to the dripping, I think a simple solenoid would take care of most of it. I am considering a nozzle in the airbox so that drips just go into the box or the filter.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

The car feels great but I do plan on hitting the track as soon as my good buddy gets his car ready and I find this tiny vacuum leak somewhere. :redface:

I've seen way more than 5whp on pre turbo, there were plenty of 30-40whp Diesel graphs out there and it was almost 10% more. I'm not expecting 10% but definitely not 1%. :frown:

I'm not that concerned about dribble mainly because it's pissing out a 2gph nozzle and the comp wheel is still spinning super fast and has tons of heat around it to dissipate the left over amount. I'd like to see someone with a temp sensor right after the turbo do this so we can see a before and after and then see what that does to the total drop in the MAT sensor.

Common Razor, this would take you all of 2 hours to install and log, then you can sell kits and increase your personal Christmas bonus this year.

 

[kingots2004]

i say swap to race gas and spray a 300 shot of juice to it.lol jk i want to see what happens with this

 

[Grumpy]

Common Razor, this would take you all of 2 hours to install and log, then you can sell kits and increase your personal Christmas bonus this year.

why mess with a simple system he already has worked out street cars have gone in the 9's @138+ with his kit I wouldn't spray anything into a nice $1500/$2000 DBB turbo
So what did your car run before this "pre turbo kit" ??

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Well one of the reasons I'm doing this is because of you Grumpy, you always say, " Let us know how it goes " in your sarcastic like way. :biggrin:

But how many cars could have said that we didn't need any type of alcohol injection and just run race gas and boost etc etc. Times are a changing and we're already behind on this yet were the leaders in the Meth Injection. :redface:

As for spraying stuff into $2000 turbo's, if done right it won't have any ill effects like the guys on the Aquamist forum who have been running it for over 50k miles. I'd like to know how many of us GN's have run an aftermarket turbo for 50k, probably not even 10% of us so I'm not worried if it takes a dump at even 20k. At the rate I'm driving that will take me 5-6 years and if it makes 5-10% more power no prob's by me.

Power figures to come since no one on here will probably run it until they see it's doing something. But I say if it does work and THEN Julio starts selling kits he needs to name it the GNVYUS INJECTION KIT!!!!:tongue: :tongue:

 

[Grumpy]

Well one of the reasons I'm doing this is because of you Grumpy, you always say, " Let us know how it goes " in your sarcastic like way. :biggrin:

well.. I am from Missouri .."SHOW ME" oh I wouldn't be counting on the "royalty check" from Julio just yet

 

[Mr.Spool]

mike, what has the car run before without this new injection attempt?is this your attempt to lower intake temps or just cool the turbo down?

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Ok Show Me stater, I'm doing the showing and it's showing pretty good so far. :biggrin:

All the before and after is coming now that it's on the car running as of Monday.

This is solely to cool down the compressor wheel so it will act like a larger turbo. I don't expect it to drop the total MAT a lot but it will put the deep freeze on the comp wheel and act like Winter in the North Pole for sure.

 

[JayC]

Talked to a guy today that sells the engine management system we're using on the race car. He told me his intake temperature was 400 degrees before spraying alcohol before the supercharger. Dropped the intake charge down to 100 degrees but didnt pick up anything.

YMMV