Preturbo Injection Test Run And Setup

[Jerryl]

Talked to a guy today that sells the engine management system we're using on the race car. He told me his intake temperature was 400 degrees before spraying alcohol before the supercharger. Dropped the intake charge down to 100 degrees but didnt pick up anything.

YMMV

Jay,
Just trying to understand;
Sprayed alky before the charger, intake charge temps dropped 300F and there was no HP benefit? (Did I get that right?)

 

[Boost231]

Jay,
Just trying to understand;
Sprayed alky before the charger, intake charge temps dropped 300F and there was no HP benefit? (Did I get that right?)

wow. that cant be.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

400 degree inlet temp on a supercharger means that guy is pushing some serious boost. I can't imagine how the air getting that much denser didn't do anything but it is what it is.

Here is a link to check out, it's not a GN and doesn't run on gas either LOL but it's something positive.
Alcohol injection dynos Turbo diesel - TDIClub Forums

KW x 1.341 = HP
NM / 1.356 = TQ

I'm going to have results for us specifically but as long as it does something good then it'll be worth the $240 I have in the kit.

The real question is, if it works, will Grumpy get on board and go from "Show" to "GO"!!!:wink: Maybe sneak out another tenth in the sleeper.

And my royalty check can be like the music industry, about .80 cents a record sale. :frown:

 

[Grumpy]

The real question is, if it works, will Grumpy get on board and go from "Show" to "GO"!!!:wink: Maybe sneak out another tenth in the sleeper.

nah not me .. this works fine the way it is you will have a hard time convincing me that it won't hurt a BIG $$$$ Turbo . let some others try it like you

 

[S3.2]

From what I read in the past in the Aquamist forum some guys who successfully sprayed pre-turbo where using a special nozzle (I think from a company in Australia). This nozzle would spray the alky-water mix with the help of compressed air coming from an electrical compressor to make a super fine mist in order to not destroy the turbo's impeller. Well their forum is not working for some reason the last month or so, so I couldn't read it again to give you more details. I always wondered if spraying straight meth or a 50/50 mix with water is better...

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Not familiar with that nozzle but there were plenty of guys running a 1 to 3gph nozzle for 10's of thousands of miles and still ok. Like I said, the turbo is already smoking to what I figure is a feedline volume issue so if it's gotta go back later for that then let's make it go out with a bang. And I'm on a mission to run an 11.5 on my street tune with these crappy Nitto's so I need some help.

50/50 seemed to be the mix of choice from Devils Own on this. They did that dyno and it did make more power with that mix but I wouldn't run straight water if you're concerned about compressor damage. And if you're a racer than I'd run an 3gph at really high pressure of straight Meth and let her have it.

BTW the dyno graph showed how if you spray the comp wheel early on it will spool faster and make more power. I'm not concerned with that since I'm on a turbo way to small already but for you big boys, a 5psi turn on would help that momma.

I wonder if the Hardtuf coating http://www.tiodize.com/anodizing.html
would be a great spray to the new 62/65 billet comp wheel to guarantee if you ran straight meth it would be fine corrosion wise? That turbo in BB with pre turbo would be a street killer for sure.

 

[Dust]

From what I read in the past in the Aquamist forum some guys who successfully sprayed pre-turbo where using a special nozzle (I think from a company in Australia). This nozzle would spray the alky-water mix with the help of compressed air coming from an electrical compressor to make a super fine mist in order to not destroy the turbo's impeller. Well their forum is not working for some reason the last month or so, so I couldn't read it again to give you more details. I always wondered if spraying straight meth or a 50/50 mix with water is better...

Alot of the guys in that thread are/were using 60 psi pumps. DO2 is pushing 220 psi

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Didn't make out good at all, Walbro is causing a lean miss up top that I never experienced before since the cars never been 100mph on the street with the wideband and it's really hard to read the Caspers fuel gauge taped to the windshield.
Didn't make 1 clean pass and the 60ft/330 sucked with the Nitto's in mid 60 degree weather at 18psi with 10psi in my air shocks.

Spent $700 today ( Denso Fuel Pump, QA1 Rear Shocks, Nordskog Digital Fuel Pressure Gauge, Lotek Triple Pillar ) and I'll try to get back there in two weeks ( hopefully weather is good here ). Dyno is Oct 18th so I might dyno and then track in the same day. :headbang:

Alky saved the day on those runs, only 1 time it came up at 1 degree knock.:cheers:

 

[Adam Connell]

Subscribed!

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Made it within 1 mile of Saturday's dyno and had to pull over due to blown headgaskets. 26psi and 0 knock didn't matter after my track disaster with the Walbro.

I mentioned this before but last time at the track the car was intake backfiring at the beginning of 3rd and I found out why Friday.

THE $HITTY A$$ WALBRO IS 8 PSI OFF AT WOT!!!

After spending $400 for the Denso, Digital Fuel Pressure Gauge and Triple Pillar it was too late due to a crappy designed pump that should've been recalled when Walbro knew there was a design flaw with one of the pump pieces.

So nothing for this year, thanks Walbro. Let me know if a class action starts up from other pissed off board members.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

WOW This sucks big time.

 

[esinger]

I'm willing to setup an experiment to see if methanol effects the compressor in anyway. I have several hotair turbos that I bought a couple of years ago that need to be rebuilt. I could take one apart and sit the compressor in the methanol and see what the effects are. I know someone that has some pretty precise measuring devices that I could use for a before and after comparison.

Does any of this sound plausible?

 

[Razor]

I'm willing to setup an experiment to see if methanol effects the compressor in anyway. I have several hotair turbos that I bought a couple of years ago that need to be rebuilt. I could take one apart and sit the compressor in the methanol and see what the effects are. I know someone that has some pretty precise measuring devices that I could use for a before and after comparison.

Does any of this sound plausible?

I believe the issue is not wetting of the blade but rather a water droplet hitting it.

Kind of like throwing a BB through a fan while its spinning. Not putting the fan blade in a bucket of BB's.

If it helps, specific gravity of methanol is .79 compared to water 1.0. Meaning its 21% lighter. Meaning the BB weighs less.

 

[esinger]

I believe the issue is not wetting of the blade but rather a water droplet hitting it.

Kind of like throwing a BB through a fan while its spinning. Not putting the fan blade in a bucket of BB's.

If it helps, specific gravity of methanol is .79 compared to water 1.0. Meaning its 21% lighter. Meaning the BB weighs less.

Okay, so what's the specific gravity of oil droplets? If I'm not mistaken oil droplets are being spray into the turbo thru the PCV. Would that not have the same effect?

 

[esinger]

I just looked up the specific gravity of engine oil and it looks to be in the .88 to .94 range, so if the BB theory holds true, then oil from the PCV would effect the turbo worse than methanol.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

By all means take this over for me as I don't know if I'll be back up this year to do any real testing.

Currently the Devils Own Universal Kit 1 at $240 with the bottle is the cheapest and most practical way to go about this. Really simple to install and starts off of boost/vacuum hose from the car, I'd recommend no earlier than 15psi if you're worried about compressor damage due to the higher heat evaporating all the spray.

Meth is lighter and evaporates quicker which are two good reasons I was 50/50 but the nozzle size and pump pressure are extremely vital so don't go over a 2gph since it's almost like a 3gph at the pressure it pumping out.

 

[Under Pressure]

I know this is not alky but, the 78 ot 83 turbo regals have the carb before the turbo?? This would be mixing gas into the turbo . I think I am right, someone might should verify. If I am right the factory would not have done this if it were dangerous.

they also werent intercooled i would think it would puddle on the bottom of the intercooler and back fire would be intresting

 

[it's just a six]

Any updates?

 

[Adam Connell]

So do you think you need a progressive setup for pre-turbo?

I am also thinking about making a system for the pre turbo setup that is TPS activated instead of boost activated.

I would think activating the pre turbo system as early as possible would be ideal to maximize the better spooling effects.

Either way, this is on my list of things to do.

 

[Pablo]

Mike,

EDIT: just noticed this thread was old.. I hadn't seen it before. I'll leave this post anyway.

Good posts. As you can see, bringing something "new" to the table on this forum is a lot like Galileo telling the church that the Earth revolves around the sun.
The only difference is that what you are doing is not new. So when I see posters claiming to be pioneers since they started messing around with A.I. in 1989 I get a chuckle.
A.I./W.I. has been around since the 1930s and if you guys were real experts in the subject you would have at least read some of the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (N.A.C.A.) papers on the topic. I'm hardly an expert and I have.

Pre-turbo/supercharger injection has the potential to accomplish exactly as you described in one of your posts. You do need to do better datalogging though. A simple method of measuring the efficacy of your setup would be to log EGTs since any drop in inlet temp has a corresponding drop in egt (rBruce Plecan posted about this numerous times) though for truly elegant data aq. you'd want a post turbo temp reading as well.

I have to wonder how all the pre turbo carb setups managed to survive when so many are freaking out about blade erosion. I have trouble believing that gasoline was always vaporized before it hit the turbo in those combos.

Even at least one OEM had a pre turbo water setup (iirc SAAB) and yes there was documented blade erosion over the course of 100k but much of it was attributable to the use of regular tap water (mineral content) so you should remember to keep it distilled.

You could of course use methanol pre turbo it is indeed lighter but has much less latent heat of vaporization than water so you would have to use more to achieve the same level of cooling... potentially negating the benefit (the reduced potential for blade erosion) that you were looking for to begin with.

As a side note, I would encourage you to add a WOT microswitch that is tapped into your test button on the alkycontrol kit. A single map input is very inadequate for aggressive street use. Without this switch my transitional knock threshold is way way way lower. This might be very difficult to tune for with a non closed loop WOT system. I have a GEN II with WB feedack so my AFRs are kept in check. Many other alky kit manufacturers have recognized the drawbacks behind single input activation which is why they use more than one input.