Is the push rod rubbing the side of the tube closest to the pedestal or the side farthest away from the pedestal?
Push Rod Rub
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turbo nasty
Turbo Dojo / MNTR
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- Jul 19, 2001
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As far as the TA SI heads go when trying to use T& D 's for factory iron heads they won't work the valve spacing is .080 difference and the amount of material needed to be removed in the pushrod holes to clearance would likely break through and hit coolant on the end cylinders The fix ...as mentioned is to get the TA rockers that T& D makes for them that has the rocker arm machined with a offset to work correctly. I was told the factory t& d setup would work but after mock up I don't feel comfortable with possible side loads and possible valve guide wear and go I through the time and money to machine and tube the pushrod holes if they did hit water.
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I had a set of T&D 1.55 roller rockers originally for iron heads, wanted to use them for champion aluminum heads and they were of center like yours. Just call T&D and they have a kit for aluminum heads, includes new shafts and shims to get the proper centering. Comes with instructions and you can now switch from iron to aluminum just by switching shafts and shims. Hope this helps.
This is what I'm talking about. This method of getting the roller tips centered on the valve stems moves the rockers over and the push rods with them. It's a poor method to use as the likelihood of the push rods rubbing is increased. The method that TA chose was to have T&D manufacture a wider rocker body for them. This allowed the push rods to stay in their stock location.
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View attachment 253969 View attachment 253969 View attachment 253969 View attachment 253969 View attachment 253969 I never ever had any rubbing on either iron or aluminum heads and they centered perfect threw the pushrod holes and the 1.55's were centered on the valve springs also. never seen or checked out the T&A rockers, but I ordered directly from T&D and their shafts are solid, sturdy and lined up with no issues or adjustments., If they don't line up, it's user error and triple check the spacers and shims.
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What aluminum heads were you using?
I was running the Champion GN1 Aluminum Heads and they made the car run worse, maybe I got a bad set of used heads...lol! just didn't get that pull like the iron heads, different pushrods and exact same preload with the same roller lifters & T&D 1.55's. The aluminum heads just didn't work well for me, as we all know these cars have a mind of their own and what you may think is better may actually be worse. I just stick with what setup I know works and I leave it alone!
The kit you show allows you to use the T&D rocker arms from their iron head assemblies. What does this kit do? It moves the rockers over to get the roller tips centered on the valve stems. The push rods get moved over as well when you move the rockers over. Because they get moved over,they are no longer centered in the push rod holes. This is the exact same set-up that the OP is using. Why are his push rods rubbing? Because they have been moved closer to the sides of the push rod holes. It's not caused by user error. It's caused by the rockers being moved over. Again,the rocker assemblies that T&D manufactures for TA move the roller tips over by using a wider rocker body. This allows the push rods to stay in the stock/centered location.
FYI,core shift doesn't play a role in this situation because the push rod wholes are drilled,not cast. Because all of the wholes are drilled,they are all drilled in the exact same relationship to one another on every head they produce.
when I purchased my T&D 1.55 Rockers, they were for iron heads and they fit the stock 8445 heads perfect. I then purchased some GN1 Aluminum heads and found out they did not center correctly and I tried and tried, asked a few questions on here and another member told me that T&D makes the kit! So the pic posted is the kit that is for the GN1 Aluminum heads, not sure if they will work for the GN1R heads. I would say he needs to know if the rockers he has are for iron or aluminum if he didn't purchase them new, maybe he thought they were for one and they are for the other, then I would check the spacers and shims to make sure they are correct.
If you are talking about push rods running with a GN1
My kit is for GN1's since the rockers have the 0.080" offset. My rub is minimal bit this is no good either. I looked at T & D's catalogue and found shims but they appeared to be pedestal shims. I need rocker body shims. Does someone know where they can be purchased. I downloaded the T & D catalogue and did not see a listing for shaft shims???
turbo nasty
Turbo Dojo / MNTR
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- Jul 19, 2001
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BOTTOM LINE Moving factory style rockers over with spacers and or shaft bolt holes or whatever isnt going to fix it. The pushrods have to be in window of operation and its a small one...keeping the factory style T&D rockers body style and doing all this spacing ...nope. Having the rocker body made with the roller tip machined/made with a offset to the pushrod cup approx .080 vs. factory iron head style rocker that lacks this offset is the proper and easiest way IMO.
The push rod holes on the stock heads are in the same locations as the GN1 heads. You don't need different thickness washers.You already have them and they are what is causing the problem. The only other washer set they make is for the assemblies for iron heads,which are the same washers they use on the assemblies for the TA SI heads. They won't work with your longer than stock rocker arm shafts. What you need are the SI rockers and tubular spacers with the iron head washers. To get to where you need to be,you need to get a set of TA SI rocker assemblies or use your current shafts and buy the rockers,tubular spacers and washers that are used on the TA SI assemblies.
Call T&D and ask them if there is any difference between the rocker bodies they use in their iron head assemblies and the rocker bodies they use for the GN1 assemblies.
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The Kit I show, I was told was for Aluminum GN1 Heads from T&D. Okay I had a chance to test the shafts they sent me, they do align and bolt on the iron heads as in shaft bolts to shaft mount. So if the iron heads & aluminum heads have identical shaft mounts and pushrod holes as well as lifter bores, then technically they should fit/line up with no adjustment, but they don't. Something was definitely off center with the GN1 aluminum heads, as the pushrods dropped in were aligned as they should be, the problem was as his, the rockers were off center. The only thing I can think of is try a stock shaft with stock rocker on a GN1 Aluminum head and see if they line up, maybe the shafts pedestals on the GN1 heads were off center. The T&D's Rockers for iron heads have spacers and shims to get the correct center position for iron heads, all your doing is using different spacers and shims to get the correct center position for Aluminum heads. Still using spacers and shims for both, can't see how this way is different from one another, they are the same! So you are telling me that if I rearrange the spacers and shims to get the correct center position for aluminum heads it's wrong? This is the easier and correct way for me and I would use this way again. Why manufacture wider rockers to cover the offset, when you can get center with the correct spacers Tubes & Shims?
Call T&D and ask for Sheldon if he still works there, as I ordered this kit in 2009, then ask him about Kit 6011 (comes with the spacers tubes and different size shims) for the Buick V6 for the Aluminum GN1 Heads. If need be I can dig up the instruction sheet as to the layout of the spacers and shims!
Call T&D and ask for Sheldon if he still works there, as I ordered this kit in 2009, then ask him about Kit 6011 (comes with the spacers tubes and different size shims) for the Buick V6 for the Aluminum GN1 Heads. If need be I can dig up the instruction sheet as to the layout of the spacers and shims!
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Again,Yes it is. It is sold as the fix if you currently have assemblies for iron heads and want to install them on your GN1 heads to avoid the cost of buying new rocker assemblies. After all the new assemblies use the same rocker arms as the iron head assemblies. It is the method that Tom ,at Champion, chose to get the roller tips centered on the valve stems of the GN1 heads. The reason that the rockers need to be moved over is because the Champion heads have larger diameter valves which need to be moved away from each other so they don't touch each other. The first step in moving the valve farther apart from each other is to move the valve guides farther apart.The problem with the method that Tom chose to center the roller tips of the rockers on the valve stems of the GN! heads (moving the same rocker arms that are used in the T%D assemblies for iron heads over and away from the pedestals) is that the push rods get moved over with the rocker arms away from their centered positions in the push rod holes in the heads. This increases the likelihood of the push rods contacting the sides of the push rod holes in the heads.
Again,these are the same parts being used by the OP.
It looks like you are saying that your problem was that your push rods were centered in the push rod holes but the roller tips were off center of the valve stems and this is the same problem the OP is having.
No,the OP's roller tips are centered over the valve stems and his push rods have been moved over,with the rocker arms,closer to the sides of the push rod holes because he's using the same parts from the kit you have shown.
This will result in the push rods being centered in their respective holes and the rocker tips being off center of their respective valve stems.
Moving the narrow rocker arms over will center the roller tips over the top of the valve stems and will bring the push rods over with them,increasing the likelihood of contact of the push rods with the sides of the push rod holes. This is the problem the OP is having. The reason to manufacture wider rocker arm bodies is to allow the push rods to stay centered in their respective push rod holes while also centering the roller tips over their respective valve stems.
The OP is already using these parts. That is why his push rods are contacting the sides of his push rod holes.
Well the pushrods should be aligned in the holes and should straight up with the valve tips if you are looking at them! So if you realign the spacers & shafts to center on the valve tips, they should also centerbwith the pushrods as they should already be aligned! Bringing the rockers to align should not shift the pushrods, because they are already straight up. If they are not straight up before trying to realign the shaft with tubes and shims. The only way I see it changing the position of the pushrods is the spacer tubes & shims are wrong! Which again the end user may have to play with them to acheive the correct alignment for both pushrods & valve tips. If I remember correctly, the instructions maybe get you close, but use the spacer tubes & shims as you see fit to get center. Mock it up and mix & match as their are enough different size shims to get center dead on.
If I move each pair of rocker arms (intake and exhaust) away from each other by sliding each of them away from each other along the length of the shafts,how do the push rods stay where they were before I moved them.? Since they are seated in pockets of the rocker arms,don't they have to move with the rockers? They do and they each move toward the sidewalls of their respective push rod holes. This is what has happened with the OP by using every part in the kit you've shown. The parts in the kit you've shown,that the OP is using,have accomplished their goal of moving each pair of rocker arms farther apart from each other along the length of the rocker shafts and were assembled by T&D and sold to him by Champion.
Yes the pushrods have to move with with the rockers, but if the tubular spacers and shims are correct, they should be centered is all im saying, with no rub. T&D may very well have assembled them wrong, I had to assemble my own. If OP could post pics of the whole shaft with good view of the spacers & shims. I can look and see what maybe be wrong as I never had this problem getting them centered.
How do they remain centered after moving them?
There are only two ways to install the spacers. One way results in the push rods being centered in their respective holes and the roller tips off center over their valve stems. The other way results in the tips being centered over the valve stems and the push rods off center in their holes. Another possibility would be to have the tips a little off center and the push rods a little off center,but there are no washers that exist that would accomplish this and it would still be less than correct. There is also no combination of currently existing washers that would accomplish this and again,this would not be a good alternative.There is no way to position these rockers that will result in centered push rods and centered tips. Nothing on this earth,short of wider rocker bodies,can accomplish both objectives because each valve has been moved farther away from it's respective pedestal and farther away from it's rocker arm.
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turbodave231
Moderator
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- May 24, 2001
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Ttype 6: I think you have missed the real problem.
The problem is that the pushrods are rubbing the side of the pushrod hole. As shipped from T&D, the rockers are not always spaced properly and pushrod to pushrod hole alignment is off. Pushrods that rub the head (or anything else) are completely unacceptable.
How to fix it?
I suggest:
Move the rocker over just far enough to eliminate the contact. The pushrods don't need to be exactly centered as long as they don't touch!!
I machine the spacer tubes, move shims around or use different shims. I have a whole box full of shims direct from T&D for S2 rockers and non- serrated valve spring shims work great on the stock size shafts.
This can usually be done without creating any major misalignment of the rocker tip to the valve tip. I have run into this on many T&D rocker sets including various Stage 2 rocker sets.........it is a fact I have learned to live with. In extreme misalignment cases, It may be necessary to machine the pushrod holes larger......be careful with this solution because you don't want to break into a port. This is best done on a Bridgeport Mill and not with a hand grinder.
My advice to anyone installing any brand of aftermarket rockers: Install check springs in place of valve springs on every valve Check springs will ensure you are not collapsing the plunger in the lifter). Mock up the entire valve train. Degree the cam. Rotate the engine and inspect each valve for:
You would be suprised how many unwanted contact issues you will find. Now is the time to correct these issues. This is part of my routine of "Trial Assembly" before final cleaning and final assembly
The problem is that the pushrods are rubbing the side of the pushrod hole. As shipped from T&D, the rockers are not always spaced properly and pushrod to pushrod hole alignment is off. Pushrods that rub the head (or anything else) are completely unacceptable.
How to fix it?
I suggest:
Move the rocker over just far enough to eliminate the contact. The pushrods don't need to be exactly centered as long as they don't touch!!
I machine the spacer tubes, move shims around or use different shims. I have a whole box full of shims direct from T&D for S2 rockers and non- serrated valve spring shims work great on the stock size shafts.
This can usually be done without creating any major misalignment of the rocker tip to the valve tip. I have run into this on many T&D rocker sets including various Stage 2 rocker sets.........it is a fact I have learned to live with. In extreme misalignment cases, It may be necessary to machine the pushrod holes larger......be careful with this solution because you don't want to break into a port. This is best done on a Bridgeport Mill and not with a hand grinder.
My advice to anyone installing any brand of aftermarket rockers: Install check springs in place of valve springs on every valve Check springs will ensure you are not collapsing the plunger in the lifter). Mock up the entire valve train. Degree the cam. Rotate the engine and inspect each valve for:
- Pushrod for contact with cylinder head during the full range of lifter travel.
- Rocker arm for contact with the spring retainer
- Retainer contact with the valve stem seal
- Piston to valve clearance (clay on the piston)
You would be suprised how many unwanted contact issues you will find. Now is the time to correct these issues. This is part of my routine of "Trial Assembly" before final cleaning and final assembly
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No kidding? So you're saying that the title of this thread (Push Rods Rubbing) reefers to push rods rubbing? Was it the 5 times I wrote that the OP's push rods were rubbing the sides of their push rod holes that led you to believe I was unaware of the fact that the OP's push rods were rubbing the sides of their push rod holes? Are you kidding me?
