Giving people the finger as a business owner is never a good thing, doubly bad when you quote the bible in your signature.as to meth.. my middle finger knows more about meth injection on a Buick than anyone I know.
Question about Boost Juice
- Thread starter Pete Revenidis
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I quoted the person as to the knowledge he presented. You can take things as you wish. That is your interpretation not mine.
OK, I don't think there's any dispute about your expertise in this area. You are the go to guy, so let me ask a question or two to clerify what I've heard here and there.
The setup: Let's assume a car something like mine that is presently running on nothing more than 93 octane gas, and while running 20-21# of boost, I have my setup tuned to shoot for a 11.3-4:1 AFR at WOT.
Now with that being said, what would one shoot for if running alky, and a few more #'s of boost (say 25ish). I have heard that a good target would be 10.7-8:1 AFR. Have I heard correctly??
Now here's what I don't know or understand, what if the same car were to convert to E85? With no alky running, what would the best target AFR to shoot for?
TIA.
The best target is the one that makes the most power. This can be on a Dyno or looking at trap speed using a track.
If your running 21 psi and only looking to get a few more psi from it, a smaller nozzle can be used and possibly keep you in that 11.0 range. This would mean less dependance on the system and less consumption.
Our cars typically favor AFR's in the lower 11's with straight pump gas. Using injection.. straight methanol..as you introduce methanol, its stoich being lower, that target gets moved down. Rule of thumb is 10.8-11.0 on a single nozzle. And mid 10's on a twin. I have a customer who runs 9.6:1 AFR on pump gas and it runs low 5's in the 1/8. I personally run 10.5 target on mine using twin 15 gph nozzles. If I was tuning at a track I would start at 10.4-10.5 on a single make a pass and look at the MPH pickup between 1/8 and 1/4. Then pull fuel out to Lean it out and see if the MPH on both points increases. If so.. your on the right track. Same can be said of timing.. start at 18 degree's.. and work up till it doesn't MPH any more. A degree at a time.. Same with amount sprayed.. start on a greater amount and work on reducing how much is sprayed. So if you wanted to lean it out a touch.. you can bring down settings a little a time until you register a small amount of KR. Like .5-1 degree. Once your figure out what AFR it likes.. then move up on timing and see where that goes.. any KR.. add methanol "IF" the fueling is there. So if you saw 12.0 AFR and knock.. you would add fuel. This all takes patience and being able to be repetitive on the knowns like boost, timing, ambient temps, etc. In the end this is how to extract the most from any combination.
E85.. tune using lambda. Stoich on meth is 7:1, ethanol is 8.5:1, gasoline 14.7:1 When you mix them some wide band sensors are not too accurate.. so start rich and work up leaning on it.
Hope this helps
If your running 21 psi and only looking to get a few more psi from it, a smaller nozzle can be used and possibly keep you in that 11.0 range. This would mean less dependance on the system and less consumption.
Our cars typically favor AFR's in the lower 11's with straight pump gas. Using injection.. straight methanol..as you introduce methanol, its stoich being lower, that target gets moved down. Rule of thumb is 10.8-11.0 on a single nozzle. And mid 10's on a twin. I have a customer who runs 9.6:1 AFR on pump gas and it runs low 5's in the 1/8. I personally run 10.5 target on mine using twin 15 gph nozzles. If I was tuning at a track I would start at 10.4-10.5 on a single make a pass and look at the MPH pickup between 1/8 and 1/4. Then pull fuel out to Lean it out and see if the MPH on both points increases. If so.. your on the right track. Same can be said of timing.. start at 18 degree's.. and work up till it doesn't MPH any more. A degree at a time.. Same with amount sprayed.. start on a greater amount and work on reducing how much is sprayed. So if you wanted to lean it out a touch.. you can bring down settings a little a time until you register a small amount of KR. Like .5-1 degree. Once your figure out what AFR it likes.. then move up on timing and see where that goes.. any KR.. add methanol "IF" the fueling is there. So if you saw 12.0 AFR and knock.. you would add fuel. This all takes patience and being able to be repetitive on the knowns like boost, timing, ambient temps, etc. In the end this is how to extract the most from any combination.
E85.. tune using lambda. Stoich on meth is 7:1, ethanol is 8.5:1, gasoline 14.7:1 When you mix them some wide band sensors are not too accurate.. so start rich and work up leaning on it.
Hope this helps
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Razor, you and I have been friends and known each other for years, and I just want to tell you that your above message is the best you have ever posted in sharing your knowledge.
That to me is what this board is all about, sharing and helping people, no matter if we have a different opinion about a product or method concerning turbo Buick performance.
The "best" method or part for a build is what suits the owners requirement in all areas.
It is good to be passionate about a product, but trashing the competition is not appropriate, pointing out advantages of another product is a much better path.
I know it was not your intention to "bash" Dave and I, so we will "turn the other cheek", and leave it behind as this was probably done when you were on a emotional high!
The tech info you just posted reflects what our local tuners have been doing, so thank you for sharing this for all to see and understand.
Thanks Razor, that helps a bunch, and validates the tuning I helped with on the few cars I've tweaked on that had your kit. Appreciate the help.
But it sounds like E85 is a whole new game. If all I had to work with for a wideband was a PLX, what would a good safe starting point be for a WOT Target AFR?
Thanks
Pronto
No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.
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Dave, this calculator might help. http://www.wallaceracing.com/air-fuel-lambda.php
Now I'm more confused than ever with that. If I enter a gasoline value of 11.4 for example (my WOT value), the calculator says E85 equiv. is 7.57 !! How do I manage that? My WBO2 wont display numbers that low.
lambda tuning direct from the sensor?
So does that mean if I shoot for 11.4 on gas, that I should still shoot for 11.4 on E85?
Pronto
No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.
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Reading a couple of E85 race sites, they suggest .71 lambda for aspirated engines to start at. I don't know how to convert that to a gas a/f if the sensor doesn't measure that rich. Maybe there are WBs out there that measure both and you can switch back and forth?
No. The lambda value is what the sensor outputs so if you can find a sensor that reads accurate in that 8.5AFR range. Not sure what the lambda would be at that AFR.
I guess I'm too thick headed to grasp this, you've officially confused me completely.
IF gasoline's stoiceometric AFR is 14.7:1, what is it for E85's stoic?
IF gasoline's WOT Target AFR (for example) is 11.0:1, what is it for E85?
Pronto
No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.
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What is Lambda?
Lambda is a measure for the mass air to fuel ratio (AFR) present during combustion. When exactly enough fuel is combined with the available free oxygen, the mixture is chemically balanced and is called stoichiometric.
From what I've been able to determine, widebands are set to measure gasoline. From the calculator, E85 is 9.77. 11 would be 7.31.
Lambda is a measure for the mass air to fuel ratio (AFR) present during combustion. When exactly enough fuel is combined with the available free oxygen, the mixture is chemically balanced and is called stoichiometric.
- Lambda = 1 —stoichiometric mixture
- Lambda < 1 —mixture is rich, excess fuel present
- Lambda > 1 —mixture is lean, excess air present
From what I've been able to determine, widebands are set to measure gasoline. From the calculator, E85 is 9.77. 11 would be 7.31.
Pronto
No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.
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Think your chasing your tail in this thread. You might want to start another in the E85 section. Someone must know how to measure that with a wideband.
Thanks guys. Tonka PM'd me and explained it all so even an idiot like me could understand it. I can't believe I got so wrapped around the axle on this! I consider myself a pretty darn good tuner, but had a brain fart on this E-85 stuff.
And I applogize for inadvertently hi jacking the thread. If I have anymore questions in this matter I'll take it to the E-85 forum.
And I applogize for inadvertently hi jacking the thread. If I have anymore questions in this matter I'll take it to the E-85 forum.
RmvBfrFlght
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All O2 sensors measure Lambda, NB, WB , and X-band.
For a WB set up it is the controller box that converts the Lambda value to an AFR value. In order to do so the box needs to know the stoich AFR for the fuel being used. To convert to Lambda from an AFR is easy. It is the reported AFR divided by the stoich AFR.
Examples:
Gasoline with a stoich AFR of 14.7:1, at an AFR of 12.8 the Lambda is 0.87 (12.8 / 14.7 = 0.87)
Gasoline with a stoich AFR of 14.7:1, at an AFR of 11.2 the Lambda is 0.76 (11.2 / 14.7 = 0.76)
Can also work this backwards, with a Lambda of 0.82 and a stoich of 14.7, the AFR is 12.1 (14.7 * 0.82 = 12.1)
It works the same way with E85, stoich being 9.77:1
At stoich the Lambda value is 1, and the WB controller will report the AFR based on what stoich AFR value is programmed into the controller. Lets say we did program the controller for a stoich of 9.77, this is what happens:
E85 with a Lambda of 0.87 will report an AFR of 8.5 (9.77 * 0.87 = 8.5)
E85 with a Lambda of 0.76 will report an AFR of 7.4 (9.77 * 0.76 = 7.4)
OK, so lets change it up a bit. A search elsewhere a person states that max power on E85 is at an AFR of: 6.975 (we'll accept this just for an example).
So what is that in Lambda, 6.975 / 9.77 = 0.71
Now lets say that your WB controller can only use the 14.7:1 gasoline stoich value for reporting AFR. Take the 0.71 and convert it to a gasoline reading:
14.7 * 0.71 = 10.44:1 AFR, that WB controller is going to report the AFR as 10.44. We know that it isn't really that value, as we are running E85, with the AFR being reported as a gasoline value.
This is why understanding Lambda is important. It is also easier to use Lambda as the stoich AFR of the fuel isn't required.
Same for a NB O2 sensor. It doesn't matter what the stoich AFR of the fuel in use is. The sensor will still switch over at 450 mV at stoich, or a Lambda of 1.
There is another nuance of WB sensors that I will mention, but not elaborate on. The calibration of the sensor varies a little bit dependent upon the composition of the fuel. The closer to stoich the more accurate the sensor is in regards to this.
I mention it as this is why the Lambda for best power won't always line up between say gasoline and/or E85 and/or methanol.
RemoveBeforeFlight
For a WB set up it is the controller box that converts the Lambda value to an AFR value. In order to do so the box needs to know the stoich AFR for the fuel being used. To convert to Lambda from an AFR is easy. It is the reported AFR divided by the stoich AFR.
Examples:
Gasoline with a stoich AFR of 14.7:1, at an AFR of 12.8 the Lambda is 0.87 (12.8 / 14.7 = 0.87)
Gasoline with a stoich AFR of 14.7:1, at an AFR of 11.2 the Lambda is 0.76 (11.2 / 14.7 = 0.76)
Can also work this backwards, with a Lambda of 0.82 and a stoich of 14.7, the AFR is 12.1 (14.7 * 0.82 = 12.1)
It works the same way with E85, stoich being 9.77:1
At stoich the Lambda value is 1, and the WB controller will report the AFR based on what stoich AFR value is programmed into the controller. Lets say we did program the controller for a stoich of 9.77, this is what happens:
E85 with a Lambda of 0.87 will report an AFR of 8.5 (9.77 * 0.87 = 8.5)
E85 with a Lambda of 0.76 will report an AFR of 7.4 (9.77 * 0.76 = 7.4)
OK, so lets change it up a bit. A search elsewhere a person states that max power on E85 is at an AFR of: 6.975 (we'll accept this just for an example).
So what is that in Lambda, 6.975 / 9.77 = 0.71
Now lets say that your WB controller can only use the 14.7:1 gasoline stoich value for reporting AFR. Take the 0.71 and convert it to a gasoline reading:
14.7 * 0.71 = 10.44:1 AFR, that WB controller is going to report the AFR as 10.44. We know that it isn't really that value, as we are running E85, with the AFR being reported as a gasoline value.
This is why understanding Lambda is important. It is also easier to use Lambda as the stoich AFR of the fuel isn't required.
Same for a NB O2 sensor. It doesn't matter what the stoich AFR of the fuel in use is. The sensor will still switch over at 450 mV at stoich, or a Lambda of 1.
There is another nuance of WB sensors that I will mention, but not elaborate on. The calibration of the sensor varies a little bit dependent upon the composition of the fuel. The closer to stoich the more accurate the sensor is in regards to this.
I mention it as this is why the Lambda for best power won't always line up between say gasoline and/or E85 and/or methanol.
RemoveBeforeFlight
EatMyRubber
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As a tribute to him.. put it on and give it a whirl. Life is all about decisions.. some you make, some are made for you by others. You have a wealth of information on this particular website as to what to do and not to do with your car. Up to you really for the ultimate decision. Most of us posting on this thread have been there and done that sharing our wisdom. Typically post count lets you know how long someone has been around contributing.
Some may be good at paint and body, engine building, chassis setup, tuning.. as to meth.. my middle finger knows more about meth injection on a Buick than anyone I know.
PS.. that chip you have is a copy.. Red's chips don't look like that.
Thanks Razor. I wouldn't be doing it if the old man didn't want it on there. While on Hospice he told me he was planning on using the Snow kit as a suppressor, not for racing (which he hasn't done for a while) That is all this is about, him, period. He left a bunch of engine parts (probably stock from his original build back in the early 90's and even more than that) a Turbo, some injectors (It has the Bosch 36# ones installed) The Snow kit, about 6 chips, 3 of which are labeled. 2 Cases of "Boost Juice" which he paid 57 dollars for and a set of M/T slicks on Centerline rims. You know how you feel if someone close gives you something special to them? But it really isn't the first thing on your mind? I know that if this were my car to begin with and someone like the old man gave me this cursed package of certain mayhem and disaster, that I would at least hook it up and pretend to like it for the guy.
It was his car... He chose to race it over several ZR-1 level and better Corvettes, he wanted to use it for fun as his racing days were over. He had literally bought it (The Snow kit) just about a week before he went from being a normal guy that gave no clues of cancer to incoherency as the brain tumor found something crucial. Funny someone mentioned IQ earlier, his was a documented 144. He worked as a propulsion and stress engineer for a very large aerospace company, was an amazing welder and machinist. To me he knew everything and if he didn't, he could find out. To see the degradation from that into a man whose brain couldn't even control his body functions was the worst thing I have ever experienced. I at least owe him his plan, after all, it was HIS car. I am not just going to Cowboy this thing. I will get some good data (already collecting a ton of logs) and do some seriously tight parameter monitoring. If it grenades? I can look up and say I tried.
Red's chip is a copy? So what's your point? I didn't copy it..........yet. For now I am ordering the chip from Eric.
I can assure you that he had it no later than 1992 and that when he got it, he didn't care either.
Many years ago before Eric was around there was a lot of chips floating around. many copies too. Point on a copy is that it may not be a correct copy. Its different when it has the original sticker on them. Since the chip controls timing and fueling its important the correct chip be used. Its hard enough to tune a car that you add a variable like an unknown chip from who? Thats why I mentioned it.
The problem with the internet is that sometimes we get behind a keyboard and open ourselves up to interpretation. Its way different if we where hanging out at a car show, drag strip, restaurant, etc.. that way there are no mis-interpretations of meaning. Reason I hate texting sometimes to my Wife
I get into trouble cause I didn't take the extra few minutes out of my busy day to analyze what I just sent her before I sent it.
I lost my previous Wife of 12 years to a brain tumor. I know how hard it is to live with someone sick that is falling apart right before your eyes. I don't wish it upon anyone.
Install the Snow kit.. put Erics chip. Don't use methanol in the tank, and let Eric know your putting a Snow kit on the car so he can burn the correct chip.. Enjoy it in remembrance of him.
See you latter
The problem with the internet is that sometimes we get behind a keyboard and open ourselves up to interpretation. Its way different if we where hanging out at a car show, drag strip, restaurant, etc.. that way there are no mis-interpretations of meaning. Reason I hate texting sometimes to my Wife
I get into trouble cause I didn't take the extra few minutes out of my busy day to analyze what I just sent her before I sent it.I lost my previous Wife of 12 years to a brain tumor. I know how hard it is to live with someone sick that is falling apart right before your eyes. I don't wish it upon anyone.
Install the Snow kit.. put Erics chip. Don't use methanol in the tank, and let Eric know your putting a Snow kit on the car so he can burn the correct chip.. Enjoy it in remembrance of him.
See you latter
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