question.

[GARY HARVEY]

and the problem with the intake

inlet hasn't been addressed.
Other than cleaning up the pockets and port matching, getting around that little inlet remains THE problem with a HA intake. They were only made for a short time because of this major design (flaw).
If you want to improve flow, start gathering up IC parts and give up trying to make this little pig sing.

Been there and done that, all you end up with is frustration and a lot wasted time and e$$ort...

 

[boostmaster]

Lets put a stop to this

inlet hasn't been addressed.
Other than cleaning up the pockets and port matching, getting around that little inlet remains THE problem with a HA intake. They were only made for a short time because of this major design (flaw).
If you want to improve flow, start gathering up IC parts and give up trying to make this little pig sing.

Been there and done that, all you end up with is frustration and a lot wasted time and e$$ort...

Ahh.....yet another Hot Air skeptic destined to mislead the very souls that rely on him for advise. Covert, convert, or go to hell you sinners...lol:biggrin:
NEWSFLASH......Just because you couldn't make yours run doesn't mean it can't be done..."man that rhymes, now I'm a poet too." Many have already reached and surpassed there goals of making power with a hot air car. There are alot of fresh faces on this board so most of you don't remember when the hot air section was full of innovators and guys that actually researched and tested their cars at the track on a weekly basis. Back when Turbomotion, 0 to 60, Eastern Performance, ATR and a few others had parts to support our vehicles and we gave the feed back on them.

They have gone the way side and there are but a few of us still around but they will be missed. So I will give a shout out to those that have left us, "the real hot air innovators" Buickfromhell, twins, nocooler, herbfisherman, cool84,TType84, 6Sense, LeeThompson, turbo6X2,redshotair, drewcarlton and a few others I can't remember off hand.

When these guys where around this board was happening with R&D and not just talking about it but "DOING IT" and giving out good solid advice. Not the usual give up and convert. There have been pleanty of hot airs with 11 second time slips, now I don't know about you but 11's is fast in my book. It seems that the real limitation to these cars after you replace the passenger side header is.
1) The Intake Design
2) The limited availability of an aftermarket turbo.

As far as the intake is concerned a stock one with a good port job should do fine down to the 10's as stated. Lee Thompson ran 10's non intercooled with a stock ported intake. What most people don't understand is the intake was designed with 2 purposes the long runners create torque. It gives the intake a tunnel ram effect without the additional height that would be required. Also they where originally designed to be used with a factory installed alcohol injection system that also takes advantage of the long runners giving the air time to cool before going into the cylinders. The only reason buick switched to intercooled so soon was because alcohol just wasn't feasible for use by the general public without having massive warranty issue from people blowing engines because the alcohol ran dry.

With the turbo the lack of carbon seal backing plates has been the drawback from being able to go any bigger than stock. Since our cars have a draw through design the dynamic seal turbos simply won't last long on a hot air.

So please stop spreading misinformation and discouragement about theses cars and help to preserve the few that are left. THE ONES THAT STARTED THE REVOLUTION.......THE 84-85 TURBO BUICK.
WITHOUT US THERE WOULD BE NO 86-87'S.

I'm done!!!!!

 

[GARY HARVEY]

I understand and so on...

but, the amount of effort that was put forward to circumvent a design limitation cannot be ignored. I understand and respect your love of original 84/5 turbo Buicks.
Agenda's aside for the HA aftermarket, I have a 84 sitting outside and enjoy it regularly. There comes a point though (which I've reached) that you've pretty much done everything, including getting into the 11s.
My effort's reached a wall along with many of the people you mentioned. Not a bad thing, just progress.
I respect a HA collector, I am one. My intake remains in OEM condition other than my port matching efforts to not cut up and maintain OEM HA turbo config. (with no add on's.)
I have had a lot of enjoyment along the way and spent more than I care to remember getting the car to this point. Would I do it again? NO WAY. That's me though (looking in the mirror), you want to feed a HA Buick, go for it.
I guessing that everyone here wants the same thing.. and right up until a GN pulls into the other lane, you'll be in charge.

I also have stepped away from the soap box.

 

[Jerryl]

IMHO of course . . . .

First off, it comes down to phylosophy and goals.
While the HA intake is far from an optimum design, it has proven to be acceptable when ported into the 10's.
In it's ported state, it is not the system constraint and will outflow the readily available TA33.

The cross sectional area of the smallest point in the HA intake exceeds the Cross section area of the outlet (A/R area) of the HA housing.
The rub is that air has mass, and the laws of Sir Isaac Newton apply.
If GM would start with a clean sheet of paper, the HA manifold would be much different, as would the 86-87 intake.

Sure, there is a point of diminishing returns attempting to compensate for the inherent flaws, but the "return on investment" will be different for everyone.
Example; For a 13 second HA car, the pored HA manifold is very acceptable.
For an 8 second car, it most likely will not work.

IMO, if someone wants to run mid 9's consistently, it would be simpler with an IC'd set-up because of its availability of turbo's DP's, design advantages, etc.
Not necesarily "easier or cheaper", just much simpler.

As far as the turbo . . . per the original post . . . .
I think that was pretty much explained.

 

[charlief1]

LOL I think he hit a nerve with you Boostmaster. If it's any consolation I'm trying to break the 12.9 second barrier with a carb/turbo car so I know how frustrating it can be when there's no aftermarket support. At least you guys have some parts available to you but I'm completely on my own here.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

With the turbo the lack of carbon seal backing plates has been the drawback from being able to go any bigger than stock. Since our cars have a draw through design the dynamic seal turbos simply won't last long on a hot air.

Im working on it, carbon seal backingplates will all be available within the spring 2010

A.j.

 

[boostmaster]

Im working on it, carbon seal backingplates will all be available within the spring 2010

A.j.

We really appreciate the support. But just like every other hot air part we'll probably have to mortgage our homes to buy one.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

We really appreciate the support. But just like every other hot air part we'll probably have to mortgage our homes to buy one.

the seal plates alone should retail at around 165 bucks a piece. but I figured that wasnt to bad for a billet piece that will use a slightly more modern 4 piece carbon seal. I mean, its not tooo bad of an upgrade cost provided you can rebuild a turbo yourself.

A.j.

 

[GNeric]

SWEET!!!! You need to hurry these up for my TA-49 for the Vega so I can get started on it.

the seal plates alone should retail at around 165 bucks a piece. but I figured that wasnt to bad for a billet piece that will use a slightly more modern 4 piece carbon seal. I mean, its not tooo bad of an upgrade cost provided you can rebuild a turbo yourself.

A.j.

 

[boostmaster]

Backing Plates

the seal plates alone should retail at around 165 bucks a piece. but I figured that wasnt to bad for a billet piece that will use a slightly more modern 4 piece carbon seal. I mean, its not tooo bad of an upgrade cost provided you can rebuild a turbo yourself.

A.j.

Yeah that might not sound like much but when you add 165.00 on top of 850-900.00 to upgrade the stock turbo that's over a grand for an upgraded hot are turbo. I mean lets face the average person is not capable of rebuilding there own turbo and even if they did they would usually want to go bigger which would require a certain amount of machining of the backing plate. So while some might feel like it's great. History shows that most hot air owners are not willing to shell out the extra bucks for a part that usually would cost 30% less on an intercooled car. For 1000.00 bucks total you probably could find a good low mile used intercooled turbo much larger than the TA49 or TA33 which are basically the same turbo in hot air configuration. But it wouldn't be a direct bolt on job which leaves you with only the one choice of turbo upgrade. So its a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario. But if the final price is right I myself would buy a few of them. Maybe you could give me a package deal. PM me when your done.

 

[Boost231]

so each backing plate and seal will have to be a certin size for each turbo correct? so say i buy a TA-66 how will i know what backing plate i will need? im not a turbo guru. i know where i can get a turbo made but i have yet to dish out the money they want.

 

[boostmaster]

so each backing plate and seal will have to be a certin size for each turbo correct? so say i buy a TA-66 how will i know what backing plate i will need? im not a turbo guru. i know where i can get a turbo made but i have yet to dish out the money they want.

See What I mean?.........

And the answer is no, you'd have to have the backing plate machined out to whatever size compressor wheel your going to use.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

thats is correct, each one will have to be machined for each wheel and each particular compressor.

but its still not a big problem.

many backing plates will fit multiple models, as the area where the wheel sits is the most particular part and its nuthing more than a quick ride on the lathe to make the hole match. Case in point, the first carbon retrofits we made were nuthing more than a standard T3 carbon seal backing plate with the hole matched to the new wheel and a cover to compliment. The carbon seal itself is the same size, as long as its sized for shaft family IE large or standard.

At this point, I am only making the plates to support standard Journal bearing turbos. meaning, cores found on TB.com and regular off the shelf buick upgrades. I see no point in moving to more modern ball bearing units as there is no real advantge to there use when a carbon seal is involved. Originally I had been gearing up strictly for carb turbo support but extended the offer to all who needed carbon seals.

Either way, if you decide you dont want to rebuild yourself after I finish geting all of my papers together and talk to shane, I might be open to offer the carbon seal retrofit for those who would rather send it off.

But I do understand where your coming from on the selction of proper plate, and as it sits, the easiest way I could gaurantee you get the right plate would be to send in your old one, and the plate will be made to match.

So no, I suppose this isnt the answer to all of our turbo problems, but it is another option to us available. it will now be "Possible" to make the upgrade.

But most notably, an upgrade for the Carb Turbo guys will now be available!

A.j.

 

[racemybuick]

OK...im lost... what is a carbon seal backing plate? is it part of the turbo? is it the part that bolts to the center section? I have a decent stock turbo with mods... Im putting that in and im going to experiment with all the portwork i have done, some alky and some fuel and see how I do... I dont ahve a powerlogger or anything yet (scanmaster hopefully on its way...)

I want to go low 12's, but a 12.9 would be great!!! I want 11's in the future, just not ready for it with $$$ in any car!!!

I went IC for a while, car was fun, but needed the cash.. If I could do it all over again, I would still have both!!! I miss my IC car, and I really want the damn hot air running!!!! I had a 13.89 in a hot air in 2000... That was my best and I plan to beat the $%^& out of that!!!


John

 

[charlief1]

OK...im lost... what is a carbon seal backing plate? is it part of the turbo? is it the part that bolts to the center section? I have a decent stock turbo with mods... Im putting that in and im going to experiment with all the portwork i have done, some alky and some fuel and see how I do... I dont ahve a powerlogger or anything yet (scanmaster hopefully on its way...)

I want to go low 12's, but a 12.9 would be great!!! I want 11's in the future, just not ready for it with $$$ in any car!!!

I went IC for a while, car was fun, but needed the cash.. If I could do it all over again, I would still have both!!! I miss my IC car, and I really want the damn hot air running!!!! I had a 13.89 in a hot air in 2000... That was my best and I plan to beat the $%^& out of that!!!

John

There are 2 types of seals on the turbo between the beaing and wheels. One type is used on the 78-85 cars and it's made out of carbon to keep the oil out of the inducer side. The other style won't hold the oil out of the intake side because it requires pressure to seal properly.

 

[tb3]

that backing plate will fit a number of diiferant compressors. and most importantly, the 86/87 ta style compressor. which is very good news for us. start having somebody making the turbo to intake adapter again, and the t33 will no longer be the only bolt-on turbo option for us. the guy at local turbo shop had (one) backing plate laying around designed for the carbon seal for a ta series turbo. i bought it andi gave him a spare hot air intake, turbo, adapter, brackets etc... and he's building me a ta51 that will bolt right up. in my case, i won't even be using a adapter, except for the throttle body to compressor adapter.
as far as it being needed to be machined out to the correct size, thats a good thing as far as options for your particular turbo

 

[redhotrod]

Jumping on this bandwagon just in time,

Just got some time to look at why my ta49 was smoking oil out my tailpipes and found out I am in need of the same 4 pc seal and plate that everyone here is after, how is the new plate coming along? Very anxious to see these come available for reasonable cost...