Recipe options?

[Jnel]

I've been reading a lot here the last several weeks, and am trying to decide where to go with my car. Basically, I'm trying to decide on a philosophy as much as anything...

It's bone stock now. I would like to pep it up, but I am having some trouble deciding what to do, and why.

I've come up with some constraints, and appreciate your thoughts on this.

First, I want to be able to go back to bone stock as it came from the factory. Second, I want it to be stock looking, as much as possible.

For looks, I want to keep it stock, from the air intake, to the exhaust outlets. Not even taking off the cat. No up or down pipes, headers, etc.. Stock radiator, fan, and so on. Even not changing the coil pack. No bolt-ons, no alky.

Right now, I need to work with the parts that the car came with. I won't even port and polish any of the parts, intake, heads, TB and so on. If I had more money, I would set the originals aside, and do that to some replacement parts, maybe even consider doing a stroker, but for now, I can't. It would satisfy keeping it looking stock, and maybe I'll do it one day.

Some of the things I'm thinking about are:

86/7 ECM. What does this gain? Seems everyone is doing it, but I'm not sure why. Is it because it works with a wideband O2 sensor? (I'm a newb at this stuff, and still learning).

Performance chip

Better fuel pump; hot wire

Fuel pump regulator

Different injectors

Possibly next size up turbo, adjustable wastegate

Valve train components. Different cam, sprockets, chain, rockers?

Pistons, rings, pins, rods, bearings etc.. I don't want to bore the cylinders. I hope they are in good enough shape that this doesn't need to be done

Some sort of PC tuning arrangement, of course

I do understand some of the basics of what is being done to these cars. I do want to maintain reliability as much as possible. From what I gather, running higher boost, maybe lean, with advanced timing, and low octane, is a really bad thing for these engines.

I will run on 93 pump gas, don't plan on racing, on the strip or street. For kicks, though, I really would like to take it to a dyno one day, if it ever gets finished...

Appreciate your thoughts on this,

Jeff

P.S. I really don't have any performance goals per se. Just trying to give it all I can within the constraints I've laid out

 

[boostedyards86]

imo no point in doing a single thing given your constraints.... maybe just get a TT chip? Would be the easiest way to be able to return to stock quickly. Turbo, injectors, cam etc are not gonna help you imo without larger intake and exhaust.

 

[Jnel]

Thanks for the feedback!

Yes, a TT chip is the most obvious way to go. With the mods I was thinking of, I imagine there would be SOME gain. I guess I'm looking at the collected wisdom here, to see if it would be worth it. I really don't know, would it be a nightmare to tune, for 20 HP gain? Or maybe blow up in my face?

As for ease of going back to stock, I'm not worried about pulling the engine and building it back to factory.

Jeff

 

[turbonut85]

Why not swap the fuel pump to a 340, hotwire it. Then get a set of 60lb injectors from TT along with a 100% E-85 chip. Fill it with corn, and crank the boost up A LITTLE....like to 16-17lbs. That will wake it right up, and you can keep the stock look...except for the skinny injectors, and the hotwire, of course....just a thought...I'm hoping others will chime in on this with their opinions....:biggrin: ---Keith

 

[Jnel]

Thanks for the feedback!

I really don't want to go E85.

Actually, this might turn into a very fun project. I kind-of do want to dig into the engine, it needs to come out to be refreshed, cleaned more than anything. But if I have it out, I would like to get into the cam, and pistons, and so on.

I need to check compression and leak-down next. Maybe if it seems ok, I could gradually add the mods... it would be a fun science project, I like that sort of thing...

Jeff

 

[boostedyards86]

great try a 4.1 stroker. but remember more cubes, cam, turbo, injectors, etc all work in conjunction. you need to be able to get air in and out of the car efficiently.

 

[Jnel]

yeah, I do understand how restricted the HA cars are. I've read about the comparisons to engines being an 'air pump'. I'm not knowledgeable enough to fully understand it, but it makes sense. I just don't know how far one could go with the restrictions (constrictions) that the HA cars natively have.

For me at this point, it's a mind-study. In the last week, I finally cleaned the garage enough that I can get at the car. I really suffer from talking and not walking sometimes :redface: ; hope I can give some real-world results some day...

Jeff

Edit: 'How far one could go' given the constraints I talked about. And yes, each different combo is different than the previous... I imagine they don't just 'add'

 

[esinger]

Your project does sounds interesting. I have a friend (Slogn) that just bought a 84 WH1 that has been talking to me about staying basically stock with very few mods.

The 86/87 ECM really isn't going to give you more performance, just more information with a scantool and chip options. Eric at TT can do a chip that'll work with a stock HA, so unless you're going to be tuning the car you can probably skip the ECM upgrade.

I definitely become a believer in hotwiring, so that will help keep things strong. A Walbro 340 wouldn't be a bad idea, but unless your stock pump is weak I don't think it's going to help much.

I can see a TA33 helping, since it's a more efficient turbo (colder at the same boost levels as stock).

Get a high flow cat or just gut the cat to free up the exhaust.

I'm not sure you're going to max out the stock injectors with a mostly stock setup, but a little increase in injector size might not hurt.

Does your car have a posi differential? If not that can help some.

160 thermostat wouldn't hurt to keep the engine cooler. A better radiator couldn't hurt either.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Eric

 

[O SO LO]

My car has the items you describe and is still appears stock (except air cleaner) which could be removed and original air cleaner housing installed- all my mods could be easily removed and returned to stock (there sitting on the shelf) :biggrin: pics in link below

 

[Jnel]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

Seems like it is a +1 for 86/7 ECM, because I want to do some active tuning

+1 TA33 turbo

+1 a little more injector

+1 Fuel pump, hotwire and adjustable FPR

+1 higher flow cat. I really don't want to remove the cat altogether, or gut it. I didn't realize a higher flow cat was available

Already have posi :biggrin:

+1 160 thermostat, I missed that one

+1 adjustable wastegate

On the valve train, pistons, etc, I really don't know if they would make any difference at all, given the above combo, or actually maybe be detrimental

Thanks again folks, it's starting to gel in my mind...

Jeff

P.S. What radiator is stock appearing (within reason) but performs better?

 

[Jnel]

Up pipe and downpipe

ahhhh Where do I draw the line? I really understand what boostedyards86 was saying. How stock appearing would a bigger up and downpipe be? I could quickly change it over to go back to stock, assuming I did not have to hack into the inner fenders, and so on... I understand about freeing up the air intake path, but it would definitley not be stock appearing, but may be a compromise I would entertain.

Jeff

 

[85ha]

Ta33 will deff give you more power, but you really need at least a 2.5'' down pipe and at least36lb inj for that turbo. It flows double the cfm of stock! Also porting heads will greatly help. That and the upgrades you already want to do will be like night and day and still appears stock

 

[O SO LO]

ahhhh Where do I draw the line? I really understand what boostedyards86 was saying. How stock appearing would a bigger up and downpipe be? I could quickly change it over to go back to stock, assuming I did not have to hack into the inner fenders, and so on... I understand about freeing up the air intake path, but it would definitley not be stock appearing, but may be a compromise I would entertain.

Jeff

Look at the pics in my link- I have the old Poston headers- you don't have to cut holes in inner fenders to install!

In first post you mentioned keeping it stock, now your looking at quite a few mods??!! Speed costs money, how fast
you want to go??

 

[BRAD_PADGETT]

imo no point in doing a single thing given your constraints....

X2 here. IMO keep your money in your wallet for the day when something breaks or wears out. Eventually this will force you to upgrade the MAF, ECM and ignition system. Brad

 

[phicho]

This is a great thread. I am also new to the GN world. I have a stock 84 GN with 127,000 miles. The car drips cool and I really enjoy it. I don't want to get real radical, but I would like to increase the performance. What is the biggest bang the bucks? I hate to appear ignorant, but what is "hot wire"? What is the target boost for stock hot air cars?

 

[RegalT-type85]

This is a great thread. I am also new to the GN world. I have a stock 84 GN with 127,000 miles. The car drips cool and I really enjoy it. I don't want to get real radical, but I would like to increase the performance. What is the biggest bang the bucks? I hate to appear ignorant, but what is "hot wire"? What is the target boost for stock hot air cars?

TurboTweak - Turbo Buick Custom Chips and Parts hotwire get straight power from the alternator, great upgrade item all around.

As for stock boost, Ha is around 12psi maybe more with higher Octane.(stock setting wastegate) It's hard to say best bang for buck when it comes to HA. Why you ask? Best bang is TA33(imo) but you would also have to get bigger injectors, TTCHIP& 86 ECM. better fuel pump. It's so hard to just get one item, without having to get supporting upgrades for that item. Welcome to HA world

 

[Jnel]

Thanks again for your feedbacks!

From reading here, and elsewhere, some mods will get some gains, until you run into walls, a big factor being that these engines don't breath well.

I imagine the flow was well designed by GM, to support the the overall performance, reliability, and maybe fuel mileage goals that they had, and to play well with the other components that were used.

Doing the mods I mentioned, without making the engine breath better, may well be an exercise in futility. I'm sure some of them would give a little better performance, but it is a question of how much.

Sorry about mentioning going with larger up or downpipe, or modified air intake. I was just thinking out loud. Let's assume I wouldn't do that.

If I did all the other things, and got 20-40 extra HP, or significantly reduced reliability, it definitely would not be worth it. If I got 50-75 more HP, it might make me feel good enough. Then again, maybe not. Maybe I would be frustrated, and would start compromising the stock and looks scenario. But if I did do the mods I mentioned now, it would be a good base to start with.

Overall, I can see it being a $3000 hit, minimum. Probably much more if I do rebuild the engine. I really do want to, I like to do that sort of thing, and at 112k miles, it is a little tired, I am sure.

Thanks for giving me all your thoughts

Jeff

P.S. As for being able to go back to bone stock, it's really just a sentimental thing for me. I just like the thought of not irrervsibly changing something from what it was when I got it new.

 

[novaderrik]

i know you want it to look stock- but get rid of the stock up pipe. it necks down to about 1 3/4" inside the flex coupler in the middle. the flex coupler in mine blew out, so i cut it out and welded a solid piece of pipe in there. just doing that made the car feel totally different off idle and boost builds up faster.

 

[Boostnitup]

Recipe Option

60-1 or larger turbo
340 or better fuel pump
Blue tops or better
Ported heads/oversized valves
206/206 camshaft (It works)
'87 intake (why stay with the "hot-air" intake?)
'87 style exhaust (Why? Because the larger down pipe is an instant win)

Convert it to intercooled? You wouldn't have to if you went with alternative fuels or methanol/water injection.

Nitrous (75 horses will wake up your car)

 

[Jnel]

Thanks folks, I'm really learning a lot here.

For various reasons, there are other people in a similar boat as me. They really don't want to get into a heavy duty rebuild of the whole system. Re-plumbing the whole intake and exhaust system can get very costly, and be a lot of work. Porting heads and so on, I imagine would be expensive to have done, if you couldn't do it yourself.

From what I gather, the easiest basic route to go on re-plumbing would be better air intake, better up and down pipes, and different cat (if not none at all). From a previous post, just a less constrictive up pipe made a noticeable improvement. You might not get a lot of bang from it, but I imagine it would be relatively little bucks.

There are a lot of posts about other basic recipes as far as other mods. For me, I'm still learning, thinking out loud, and am undecided.

It would be interesting to hear from someone who has done just the basics, and not changed anything else:

Better Fuel pump, hotwire

Adj. fuel pump regulator

Adjustable wastegate

86/7 ECM with performance chip

Wideband O2

Better MAF

Bigger injectors

160 T-stat

Some sort of tuning arrangement

I'll may start out with something like that, and see how it goes. There are others that people may want to consider, updated coil pack, radiator, E-fan, and so on.

As far as bigger turbo, with that combo and basic plumbing as I mentioned, would be interesting to see what one gets. However, as I understand, the TA33 is a little pricey, and may not be for everyone.

Then there's alky. Not where I'm going, I'm pretty sure. But for those who don't mind dealing with it, I hear it's a huge bang for the buck.

Jeff

P.S. It's always mentioned that if you want any sort of performance, go with an intercooled engine. A lot of people shy away from the hot airs because of that reputation. They're known as a money pit. And yes, if you want to be king of the street or strip, that is certainly true. It is an interesting challenge to see how far these cars can be pushed, albeit if that is your goal, it will be big bucks.

Really don't hear much about what performance one could get with basic mods, and staying away from alky. Maybe I've just missed those posts.

I guess my point is that maybe if it could be documented that the HA could be made to perform at xx numbers for xx dollars, at a basic level, perhaps more might be interested in them. They are relativeley inexpensive to buy up-front.