Running Distilled Water or Isopropyl Pre Turbo Discussion

[GNVYUS 1]

I looked through the search features and there hasn't been a good discussion on this in many many years. I have been reading more and more non and intercooled forced induction cars going to pre turbo/supercharged injection combo's and was curious at some of the data ( didn't find any supercharged data but didn't want to leave them out ).

Here are some things I noticed in some of the data logs I've read on this. Running distilled water at high pump pressures increased turbo efficiency and guys were able to run less psi to make the same power if sprayed pre turbo. It appears as if the M2 or M3 nozzle helps the compressor wheel dissipate heat ( like running in cold weather does over the winter ) and spool faster. For us northern guys, you notice a big boost spike in winter, generally 3psi here on the same MBC settings due to a denser inlet air charge.

So, for smaller turbo guys like me this seems like a way to stretch the comp wheel even further regardless if I already run Meth post turbo. A post I read showed some tip corrosion after 7k miles when injecting 2.7% of your inlet air mass with water. This though could have been lessened if he injected the water later in the boost sequence instead of right away and ran a higher pump pressure. It seems pointless to spray prior to 15psi but 75% of max boost seemed to be the better option to delaying corrosion and surging.

Here are some specs I found

Methanol

Density 0.7918 g/cm³, liquid
Melting point –97 °C, -143 °F (176 K)
Boiling point 64.7 °C, 148 °F (337.8 K)


Isopropyl

Density 0.786 g/cm³, liquid
Melting point -89 °C, -126 °F (185 K)
Boiling point 82.3 °C, 179 °F (355 K)


Water

Density 1 g/cm³, liquid (4 °C)
Melting point 0 °C, 32 °F (273.15 K)[2]
Boiling point 100 °C, 212 °F (373.15 K)[2]

As you go from Meth to Water the gains reduce but you lessen possible compressor corrosion.

I noticed that guys liked to run distilled water to further lessen the corrosion aspect, but from the info above it's the worst performer in the pre turbo situation. I'd be concerned with it not being a fine enough mist and damaging the comp wheel due to it's density and higher boiling point. But later read that running pump pressures into the 150+ range on small nozzles cures this issue with mists in the 20 micron range being possible.

Then there was an old school Dodge Turbo using Isopropyl and 50k miles later spraying it around peak turbo psi had no compressor corrosion with great results. This seems like the winner to me at 150+ psi on a nozzle matched to your mass air intake.

What's your take, we're all greedy when it comes to power and Isopropyl pre turbo seems to be the ultimate cold air kit IMO.

 

[Razor]

Ok.. melting should be freezing no?

I may understand shooting a non-ic application pre-turbo.. but hey.. i'm always game for data when it comes at someone elses expense

So i'll quote Grumpy.. "Give it a whirl.. let us know"

 

[Dust]

Just finished reading this, and thought that it would add some stuff for you to think about

Waterinjection ::

 

[DavzGN]

Ok.. melting should be freezing no?

I think Razor had a Duh moment since Melting point is the same as Freezing point. Just the difference is going solid to liquid versus liquid to solid.

:biggrin:

David

 

[Adam Connell]

That thread is very interesting... I have always hated the idea of an intercooler... Hmmmm so pre-turbo water injection with post turbo methanol and NO intercooler... sounds like a project for someone with more money than me... being in college sucks lol

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I'm interested more in a discussion to get info from what other people have read ect. I've found more and more info on this and the turbo diesel crowd has been jumping on this with proven results.
Alcohol injection dynos Turbo diesel - TDIClub Forums

The thing that gets me is the increased spool up, that's something I didn't think would be a side benefit to this.

Razor, what could you put together to run either injunction or aside from your current kit? Maybe a twin nozzle with the other one being an M2? But will the pressure be really high out the M2 since it's sharing a line with the M15 I have as the primary? I'm not sure I feel comfortable running straight meth on this side but can be convinced seeing the new Billet turbo's are out and don't plan on keeping this one much longer.

I'm billeting out my tranny next, frame notching it and then am going to take a stab at this with a before and after on a dyno. It looks like the Sureflow pump with an M2 nozzle will pump pressures over 200psi which will create the fine mist needed to not damage the compressor wheel.

I'd like to see if I can put down the most power on a TA49 and I think this will help seeing that some are making over 10% more power on preturbo injection.

 

[Razor]

Mike,

I dont mind helping at all. Just understand when you dwell outside the box.. you get results that are just that.

The 200 PSI on a small nozzle isnt the problem.. the problem I see is running two separate pressures at the same time from the same pump. And the fact your running an IC meaning you may have residual alcohol in the IC after you lift.. this will cuase drivability issues... and possible backfiring.

I would suggest running on C16 and placing the main nozzle pre turbo.. and documenting your results. If all well.. then move to adding the next nozzle.

The M2 nozzle isnt the problem.

HTH

 

[GNVYUS 1]

How about a separate kit so I'd have two pumps with one line each, two bottles but using the same controller and Map sensor? I'd be splicing into lines but each pump is acting on it's own to get the pressure needed for the fine mist? Maybe make a twin headed disconnect plug I can tap into to save time there etc?

Then I can run window washer fluid or even just 91% Iso in the preturbo DSM bottle ( have one on the driver side ). Not worried about a low level light as it shouldn't effect AF/R as much being an M2 with Iso.

From the comments, no one has said anything about pooling in intercoolers, backfires or stumbling but then again, I started this to see if any GN people had done it so we'd have more info. Guess I'll have to comment back on those issues later. :frown:

 

[Razor]

The guess on that other thread are running 160 HP diesels without IC. Not a fair comparison.

Like I said.. put C16 in the alky gas tank.. one nozzle pre turbo.. and see how things go..

:redface:

 

[Alky V6]

I have brought up the same question as to how cooling the air charge pre-turbo might affect the efficiency and output range of the turbo compressor. From your information it appears that it would work nicely.

If the target result is to cool the air charge after it has left the compressor, then to me the answer is simple. A small shot of nitrous oxide will do the trick and more. Not only would you be cooling the air charge, but also enrichening the air charge with a higher percentage of oxidizer. With that you can burn more fuel. The combination of both a cooler charge and the ability to now burn more fuel will give you a much better HP increase than simple water or other inert coolant. There will be zero corrosion concerns if the injection point is far enough from the blades, and you won't have to worry about nitrous settling out in your intake tract.

Whatever you inject pre-turbo is going to take up valuable real estate. It should be something that will increase the value of that real estate.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Razor, I always see you recommend not running gas through the pumps so I don't see the C16 comments relevance, especially since your the alky guy??

Don, as much as I believe your Nitrous comments are probably the way to go, Nitrous is not my bag. I'd rather stick with the easier fluids to tame and tune.

 

[Razor]

Razor, I always see you recommend not running gas through the pumps so I don't see the C16 comments relevance, especially since your the alky guy??

Don, as much as I believe your Nitrous comments are probably the way to go, Nitrous is not my bag. I'd rather stick with the easier fluids to tame and tune.

No no no.. run C16 in your fuel tank that way you have plenty of octane.. then play with the alky kit to spool your turbo. One step at a time.. know what I mean

 

[Alky V6]

Keep in mind that the separating walls of an intercooler, paricularly a bar and plate design are very thin. Any fluid that might cause corrosion in the intercooler would certainly shorten its useful life.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Gotcha, but entertain me here Razor.

I actually don't like the idea of a progressive kit on this due to the lower pressure at kick in which will create a bigger micron mist.

So, could you put together a basic kit, pump, bottle ( low level not needed ), M2 nozzle, ( already have lines from ya ), and what else??

I don't know how the non prog kits function but I'd imagine that a basic turn on box would be plenty to just activate it once the desired MAP signal is there.

I plan on running the Meth kit and 110 for race setups. This mod is to see if I can make more power at the higher boost levels due to the comp map moving.

 

[Adam Connell]

I dont like the idea of intercoolers with a preturbo system... why not eliminate the intercooler all together, run a separate water system pre-turbo and then an alky injection system pre tbody for knock suppression? Basically if you're running two systems there is no point to run an intercooler because you will just wind up with puddling and you will more than likely only be reheating the air. The more I read on this subject the more Im thinking that the water inection will mae an intercooler pointless because what it's effectively doing is taking the heat out of the compressor. Correct me if Im wrong, but if their is no heat to remove from the air then why would you need an IC anyways? And on top of the water's cooling effects the alcohol will drop charge temps even more! Best of all about a system like this: once it's tuned it will run the EXACT same all the time... there is no IC to heat soak.

It would be a lot of work tuning, but more than likely run someone about the same amount of cash as a good front mount.

 

[Alky V6]

I dont like the idea of intercoolers with a preturbo system... why not eliminate the intercooler all together, run a separate water system pre-turbo and then an alky injection system pre tbody for knock suppression? Basically if you're running two systems there is no point to run an intercooler because you will just wind up with puddling and you will more than likely only be reheating the air. The more I read on this subject the more Im thinking that the water inection will mae an intercooler pointless because what it's effectively doing is taking the heat out of the compressor. Correct me if Im wrong, but if their is no heat to remove from the air then why would you need an IC anyways? And on top of the water's cooling effects the alcohol will drop charge temps even more! Best of all about a system like this: once it's tuned it will run the EXACT same all the time... there is no IC to heat soak.

It would be a lot of work tuning, but more than likely run someone about the same amount of cash as a good front mount.

I guess it would depend on how much water would have to be sprayed to get the same cooling effect as the intercooler. The more water that is sprayed, the more air and fuel that is displaced in the cylinder. There has to be a point where the water content begins to hurt horsepower.

 

[Adam Connell]

I guess it would depend on how much water would have to be sprayed to get the same cooling effect as the intercooler. The more water that is sprayed, the more air and fuel that is displaced in the cylinder. There has to be a point where the water content begins to hurt horsepower.

Ya, or just run an alky water mix :biggrin:

Lol I just bought a new buffer for car show season, so I dont think I will be adding any HP for a while... other than my new exhaust/dp.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I've seen a car who's temps were around 150ish without the intercooler, but I don't recall the turbo size, psi or if he was running a twin nozzle post turbo ( was running a single for sure ).

I do agree that it's possible to not need the FMIC if the preturbo injection does a good job at the comp wheel end and then you do twin Meth nozzles later on. I do remember a guys combo on just preturbo not lowering the temps low enough to leave the FMIC off, and if you put too much mist on the preturbo side, it appears to drop boost pressure. I'll have to visit that later but turbo lag is supposed to decrease with preturbo injection ( when done right ) and then ditching the FMIC will help spool up that much more so it would be a wicked setup. Then add that the new Billet PTE turbo's are spooling like crazy and making power like 5 wheels bigger so you would have some crazy street turbo possibilities.

I also agree that it's very possible the FMIC core might get damaged if there's too much mist not eating up all the heat. But I don't plan on running any Meth on this side and an M2 nozzle at 200+psi going into 200 to 350 degree heat would probably evaporate at the comp wheel and never make it into the core, just a guess though.

Anyways, if it works awesome and the FMIC core goes south, I guess I loss 23lbs off the front and just ditch it.

 

[Adam Connell]

Defintely keep us posted! There is ALWAYS a better way to do things, and Im 100% for innovation if you have the drive, time, and money to do it!

 

[Razor]

Gotcha, but entertain me here Razor.

I actually don't like the idea of a progressive kit on this due to the lower pressure at kick in which will create a bigger micron mist.

So, could you put together a basic kit, pump, bottle ( low level not needed ), M2 nozzle, ( already have lines from ya ), and what else??

I don't know how the non prog kits function but I'd imagine that a basic turn on box would be plenty to just activate it once the desired MAP signal is there.

I plan on running the Meth kit and 110 for race setups. This mod is to see if I can make more power at the higher boost levels due to the comp map moving.

You can turn up the Initial on the kit and when it hits it does so at HIGH pressure.

Put water in the alky tank, put C16 in the gas tank... put a pressure guage on the nozzle.. set the pressure to 200 PSI.. and set your activation point to 1 PSI..

You have the hardware, you just need an assortment of small nozzles to play with and time..

Yes.. it costs time and money to get data