Pronto
No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.
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Those help some...as far as funtional most were not on the old GTOs anyway.
Saw the new GTO Cavalier today
- Thread starter Little6pack
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"Goat"?
The old GTO's ("Goat") had SOUL and evoked positive, car-crazy emotion when you saw them. That's what made them cars of passion and a marque in their own way.
This new import (and it IS an import that's just been Americanized/bastardized for money) makes one feel - NOTHING. It's just... well, blah.
No one ever compared the original GTO's, regardless the year (at least up until 1972), to a Chevy econobox. Today's version is easily confused with a Cavalier and easy to over look on the lot, in the driveway, on the highway.
The bottom line: The new GTO is NOT truly a GTO, at least to those who owned, drove, and loved what a 'real' GTO was about. A GTO was never just about 'scoops', exhaust pipes, or anything superficial.
It was about excitement to drive, passion to own or to lust for. The new car holding the GTO name does NOT evoke any of that for most of us.
Sorry, but that's just the way it is. We can parse all day, but the facts remain - the new car is not really a GTO. It's a Holden with nameplate it doesn't even deserve.
The old GTO's ("Goat") had SOUL and evoked positive, car-crazy emotion when you saw them. That's what made them cars of passion and a marque in their own way.
This new import (and it IS an import that's just been Americanized/bastardized for money) makes one feel - NOTHING. It's just... well, blah.
No one ever compared the original GTO's, regardless the year (at least up until 1972), to a Chevy econobox. Today's version is easily confused with a Cavalier and easy to over look on the lot, in the driveway, on the highway.
The bottom line: The new GTO is NOT truly a GTO, at least to those who owned, drove, and loved what a 'real' GTO was about. A GTO was never just about 'scoops', exhaust pipes, or anything superficial.
It was about excitement to drive, passion to own or to lust for. The new car holding the GTO name does NOT evoke any of that for most of us.
Sorry, but that's just the way it is. We can parse all day, but the facts remain - the new car is not really a GTO. It's a Holden with nameplate it doesn't even deserve.
Good post Raven. I agree wholeheartedly.
I sold a 67 GTO late last year (you might remember the montreaux blue post coupe) that was simply a work of art. It was breathtaking just to look at. The new GTO is little more than a vitamin pill with a good drivetrain.
I sold a 67 GTO late last year (you might remember the montreaux blue post coupe) that was simply a work of art. It was breathtaking just to look at. The new GTO is little more than a vitamin pill with a good drivetrain.
turbojimmy
Supporting Member
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Re: "Goat"?
The scoops, pipes and other stuff is what set it apart from the base Tempests. Those superficial things are what made people do a double take and say "oooh! A GTO". So while in and of themselves the decorations are superficial they have a lot to do with evoking the emotions you're referring to.
I wasn't even born when my '67 GTO was produced so I can't really say for sure how it stood out among the Tempests and LeMans' of the time. Maybe we're remembering the GTO as being more of a stand-out in the hey-day than it really was (visually of course - they were obviously stand-outs from a performance perspective)?
I do know that I drove a '67 LeMans - red with a black top and interior - all through high school and college. When I graduated and got a real job, I got a real '67 GTO. Red with a black top. Everyone except real gear heads thought it was the same darn car (I still live in the town I grew up in).
I do agree that the new GTO lacks a lot of the appeal that the old ones did but how much of that is because of what we've built the old GTOs up to be in our minds versus the reality of what they really were and now are?
In the spirit of the original, I think the right thing for GM to have done is to take a Grand Prix and do the things to it that they did to the Tempests in the 60's. Just like how a Regal became a Grand National. Trouble is they didn't have a mid-sized RWD platform anymore and purists would scream bloody murder if the GTO badge got put on a FWD or AWD car.
Having a soft spot in my heart for LeMans' I was horrified when they brought the nameplate back in the late 80's. I was afraid they'd somehow make a GTO out of that thing.
Jim
Originally posted by Raven
A GTO was never just about 'scoops', exhaust pipes, or anything superficial.
It was about excitement to drive, passion to own or to lust for. The new car holding the GTO name does NOT evoke any of that for most of us.
The scoops, pipes and other stuff is what set it apart from the base Tempests. Those superficial things are what made people do a double take and say "oooh! A GTO". So while in and of themselves the decorations are superficial they have a lot to do with evoking the emotions you're referring to.
I wasn't even born when my '67 GTO was produced so I can't really say for sure how it stood out among the Tempests and LeMans' of the time. Maybe we're remembering the GTO as being more of a stand-out in the hey-day than it really was (visually of course - they were obviously stand-outs from a performance perspective)?
I do know that I drove a '67 LeMans - red with a black top and interior - all through high school and college. When I graduated and got a real job, I got a real '67 GTO. Red with a black top. Everyone except real gear heads thought it was the same darn car (I still live in the town I grew up in).
I do agree that the new GTO lacks a lot of the appeal that the old ones did but how much of that is because of what we've built the old GTOs up to be in our minds versus the reality of what they really were and now are?
In the spirit of the original, I think the right thing for GM to have done is to take a Grand Prix and do the things to it that they did to the Tempests in the 60's. Just like how a Regal became a Grand National. Trouble is they didn't have a mid-sized RWD platform anymore and purists would scream bloody murder if the GTO badge got put on a FWD or AWD car.
Having a soft spot in my heart for LeMans' I was horrified when they brought the nameplate back in the late 80's. I was afraid they'd somehow make a GTO out of that thing.
Jim
Performance is exciting but the jury is still out on the Holden from true performance afficianados. While the performance numbers are debateable (due mainly to the tests on REAL GTO's being performed on poor stock tires of the day), I would wager a Happy Meal that a '70 - '71 RA III or IV or a 455 H.O. with modern tires would hold its own quite well if not better the Holden at the strip.
GM division or not, who cares? It's still an import. For example - Isuzu is partly GM as well but that doesn't make an Isuzu vehicle American muscle (now there would be a real stretch of imagination!). Real GTO's were made in Detroit USA, the place God intended muscle cars be made. And GTO's had Pontiac motors in them and Pontiac badges upon their flanks, all carefully assembled by Americans.
Another thing - performance numbers are only but one facet of car ownership/enjoyment. The same goes for our Turbo Buicks. If ALL we wanted was the best driving machine with the fastest times, we would all most likely be driving something much different than 17+ year old GN's and TR's.
When you look at a Turbo Buick, you KNOW it's a bad ass car. You feel something stir within you when you see it, no matter what angle you are looking from.
When you look at a '69 GTO, you KNOW that IT is a bad ass car. The smooth lines, aggressive stance, and attitude all said "I'm a force to be reckoned with."
When you look at the Holden, you just know that it's... well, shaped like a bar of soap with about as much soul. From 100 feet away or while its moving down the highway, I challenge anyone to tell a Holden apart from any other GM sedan, such as a Park Avenue or such. Hell, from a distance, most people can't tell 'em apart from a Cavalier!
Newer is not better just because it's quicker or may handle better. GM could have done so much more to make the Holden a real GTO. Maybe if/when they do, the reception will be much better for them.
And no, we're not remembering the GTO's of 'our day' for more than they were. GTO's were every bit the equal of other American Muscle cars. Even songs were written about them! I can't imagine a song being written today about any performance car, much less GM/Holden's new Taurus-clone.
I remember to this day looking at a new '64 GTO (in a not particularly attractive green color) with my father (I was 10 at the time) and hearing him wish he could buy it but having to settle for an Oldsmobile Delta 4 door (ouch!) with more room for the family.
I remember watching them unload a new '69 RA III off the transporter in the orange color that was popular back then (carousel red maybe?). The sound of the exhaust alone is STILL stuck in my head and I wasn't even 16 yet.
I drove a nearly new '71 in late 1971 with the 455/4 speed combo and couldn't talk my parents into co-signing for me on it when I scared my mom to death during the test drive! (Stupid mistake on my part!).
Those experiences my friends, were excitement.
No, a REAL GTO does not come from Australia, converted to left hand drive, and look like the car they are trying to pass of as one. No way, no how.
And by god, a GTO ought to say "Pontiac" on it if it's gonna say "GTO"!
who says its not a gto ? Pontiac certainly does.
the new owners do,
they might not make songs for the new one yet, but they might eventually , this isn't the only GTO thats gonna be produced , next year scoops, LS2 400hp, dual tail pipes.
here there is a movie comming out - http://www.pontiac.com/stuntmen/Stunt_high.wmv
the new owners do,
they might not make songs for the new one yet, but they might eventually , this isn't the only GTO thats gonna be produced , next year scoops, LS2 400hp, dual tail pipes.
here there is a movie comming out - http://www.pontiac.com/stuntmen/Stunt_high.wmv
buickman69
Retired Buick Enthusiast
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Messages
- 572
Originally posted by Raven
Performance is exciting but the jury is still out on the Holden from true performance afficianados. While the performance numbers are debateable (due mainly to the tests on REAL GTO's being performed on poor stock tires of the day), I would wager a Happy Meal that a '70 - '71 RA III or IV or a 455 H.O. with modern tires would hold its own quite well if not better the Holden at the strip.
GM division or not, who cares? It's still an import. For example - Isuzu is partly GM as well but that doesn't make an Isuzu vehicle American muscle (now there would be a real stretch of imagination!). Real GTO's were made in Detroit USA, the place God intended muscle cars be made. And GTO's had Pontiac motors in them and Pontiac badges upon their flanks, all carefully assembled by Americans.
Another thing - performance numbers are only but one facet of car ownership/enjoyment. The same goes for our Turbo Buicks. If ALL we wanted was the best driving machine with the fastest times, we would all most likely be driving something much different than 17+ year old GN's and TR's.
When you look at a Turbo Buick, you KNOW it's a bad ass car. You feel something stir within you when you see it, no matter what angle you are looking from.
When you look at a '69 GTO, you KNOW that IT is a bad ass car. The smooth lines, aggressive stance, and attitude all said "I'm a force to be reckoned with."
When you look at the Holden, you just know that it's... well, shaped like a bar of soap with about as much soul. From 100 feet away or while its moving down the highway, I challenge anyone to tell a Holden apart from any other GM sedan, such as a Park Avenue or such. Hell, from a distance, most people can't tell 'em apart from a Cavalier!
Newer is not better just because it's quicker or may handle better. GM could have done so much more to make the Holden a real GTO. Maybe if/when they do, the reception will be much better for them.
And no, we're not remembering the GTO's of 'our day' for more than they were. GTO's were every bit the equal of other American Muscle cars. Even songs were written about them! I can't imagine a song being written today about any performance car, much less GM/Holden's new Taurus-clone.
I remember to this day looking at a new '64 GTO (in a not particularly attractive green color) with my father (I was 10 at the time) and hearing him wish he could buy it but having to settle for an Oldsmobile Delta 4 door (ouch!) with more room for the family.
I remember watching them unload a new '69 RA III off the transporter in the orange color that was popular back then (carousel red maybe?). The sound of the exhaust alone is STILL stuck in my head and I wasn't even 16 yet.
I drove a nearly new '71 in late 1971 with the 455/4 speed combo and couldn't talk my parents into co-signing for me on it when I scared my mom to death during the test drive! (Stupid mistake on my part!).
Those experiences my friends, were excitement.
No, a REAL GTO does not come from Australia, converted to left hand drive, and look like the car they are trying to pass of as one. No way, no how.
And by god, a GTO ought to say "Pontiac" on it if it's gonna say "GTO"!
AMEN you speak the truth!
I'm a LOYAL Buick nut, BUT i've always been a fan of the '65 thru '67 GTOs.
This new car is a Chevy. It's a Chevy heart.
That's why i'm so SICK of GM and their "corporation". Instead of letting their individual companies do "their-own" thing with "their-own" engines and designs they will continue to SUCK. I think that in years to come they will lose loyal enthusiast because of this.
All GM is now is "CHEVROLET" and that's what they should offically change their name to and drop Buick, and Pontiac.
@ least Caddy & Buick has their own engine.
They are a cookie cutter company for cookie cutter people with cookie cutter lives.
I will refer to them from here on as the "Chevrolet Corporation"
sure , sure...
how about this one , with twin turbo caddy 3.6l V6 400hp / 400tq?
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/PV__017797__.jpg
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/PV__017788__.jpg
how about this one , with twin turbo caddy 3.6l V6 400hp / 400tq?
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/PV__017797__.jpg
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/PV__017788__.jpg
buickman69
Retired Buick Enthusiast
- Joined
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- Messages
- 572
It's not a Buick. Yeah, the body is cool but it's not a Buick motor. They should cast a "Buick" V8 for it.
Buick SHOULD have built the Blackhawk
Good posts " Raven", many of the same thoughts here. I would like to add a statement I have heard before, and believe:
"The engine is the heart and soul of a performance car"
This being true, this then is what makes any brand performance car, Chevrolet, Ford, Ferrari, Porsche, etc., what it is, Pontiac does not make an engine, therefor it is not a Pontiac perfomance car period. They can stick Pontiac emblems on it, GTO emblems on it, wings, scoops, vents, stripes,etc., it's not a Pontiac, that's just the way it is.
The new GTO can be appriciated for what it can do, but has no bloodline or heritage to the original what so ever, period. Sure it may be GM, world market product....., but GM has a real identity crisis, and it continues to get worse. Hard to believe that people out there think this car 'is' a Pontiac, put it in print or on TV or emblems and they will fall for it, and that is true with everything, and that really scares me, like campaign ads, news events, products, etc., etc., etc. It's a GTO, lets compare it to the 60's car, it's not related.
Bloodline, heritage, make,etc., is very important for almost anything, and most car people of any brand or brands will say the same. Sure there are purists, rodders, racers, etc., that will vary in approach , but if you go to a Corvette show you came to see Corvettes, Ferraris, MG's, Jaguar, etc. Try entering a mixed breed into the Westminster dog show, playing RAP music in a country bar, etc. Can't wait to see the Chevy GTO's show up at the three day Pontiac event at Norwalk raceway this year. Nothing against Firebirds but had enough Chevy powered Firehawks, now this. There is a time and place for everything, and when I go to a Pontiac show, I want to see Pontiacs, yes there old, but so are a lot of other makes that do'nt exist anymore, but they gather for the common interest of the owners and spectators about a particular brand, model,etc.
Like buickman69 said, they should just drop the Pontiac nameplate already, they should just start a new inbred division (GMC?) and a new mixed bag import division, and really advertise what they are really selling for what it is.
Pontiac as a manufacturer, for the most part does not exist today, period.
"The engine is the heart and soul of a performance car"
This being true, this then is what makes any brand performance car, Chevrolet, Ford, Ferrari, Porsche, etc., what it is, Pontiac does not make an engine, therefor it is not a Pontiac perfomance car period. They can stick Pontiac emblems on it, GTO emblems on it, wings, scoops, vents, stripes,etc., it's not a Pontiac, that's just the way it is.
The new GTO can be appriciated for what it can do, but has no bloodline or heritage to the original what so ever, period. Sure it may be GM, world market product....., but GM has a real identity crisis, and it continues to get worse. Hard to believe that people out there think this car 'is' a Pontiac, put it in print or on TV or emblems and they will fall for it, and that is true with everything, and that really scares me, like campaign ads, news events, products, etc., etc., etc. It's a GTO, lets compare it to the 60's car, it's not related.
Bloodline, heritage, make,etc., is very important for almost anything, and most car people of any brand or brands will say the same. Sure there are purists, rodders, racers, etc., that will vary in approach , but if you go to a Corvette show you came to see Corvettes, Ferraris, MG's, Jaguar, etc. Try entering a mixed breed into the Westminster dog show, playing RAP music in a country bar, etc. Can't wait to see the Chevy GTO's show up at the three day Pontiac event at Norwalk raceway this year. Nothing against Firebirds but had enough Chevy powered Firehawks, now this. There is a time and place for everything, and when I go to a Pontiac show, I want to see Pontiacs, yes there old, but so are a lot of other makes that do'nt exist anymore, but they gather for the common interest of the owners and spectators about a particular brand, model,etc.
Like buickman69 said, they should just drop the Pontiac nameplate already, they should just start a new inbred division (GMC?) and a new mixed bag import division, and really advertise what they are really selling for what it is.
Pontiac as a manufacturer, for the most part does not exist today, period.
DFAST1TTYPE
"owner atomic launch car"
- Joined
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- 206
Say what you want about the GTO. Get in it and drive it, your mind will change.
After all, that is what is all about.
After all, that is what is all about.
Little6pack
Active Member
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- Jun 2, 2002
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- 11,676
Ok so it is 2 inches more than a cavalier Man you need your eyes checked DUDE!
you take the modern coupe styling, and you find the cheapest pos FWD car that has a coupe style and you blurt out crap that its the same... even though nothing about them is the same.
does the Merc AMG CLK55 look like a cavalier also ?
or how about the volvo c70 coupe , is that a cavalier as well ??? :screwy:
Dan Buick Man
Buick lover
- Joined
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- 197
Just picked up a GTO company car today. If attention on the road is what you crave, don't buy one. I am having a great time driving this car. Imagine the feel when the turbo spools to 10 PSI and beyond, this is what I feel all the time. This is a true musclecar, reminds me of my GS.
turbojimmy
Supporting Member
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I was thinking that the night-before-last. I took my dad's '99 Camaro SS out for an errand (to get a part to fix my broken GN). It's only a mid-13 second car but even so, that torque is ALWAYS there. With the 6-speed you can jab it in any gear and get thrown back in the seat. My new converter helped the GN a lot, but there's still nothing like all-motor torque.
I still haven't decided how I feel about the new GTOs. They're starting to grow on me. How far away can a new GN be?
Jim
Raven,
Sure, the new GTO isn't very appealing style-wise. Blame that on Pontiac; the Monaro in it's true form is a beautiful vehicle. Second, I don't know why you are so butthurt about it being Australian...the case could be made that right now, the Australians know a ****ton more about factory performance than us Yankees. While we are still building ****loads of trucks and FWD cars, you can get a 4-door sedan down there with a turbocharged 6 or a modular V8, for example. And that's just Ford's offerings! GM (Holden) offers the 3800SC in rear wheel drive, the way it should be. They make tons of RWD, V8 powered vehicles...the Ute, the Commodore, the Monaro...hell, they were even going to build a limited run of Monaros with authentic C5R 427 Gen III smallblocks in them, but canceled because of high production costs.
Would it make you feel better if Pontiac hyped the **** out of the new GTO for months before hand, building it up into something so big that the real deal could've been beaten by your run of the mill Civic but you'd still love it? Or if it had a solid rear axle with leaf springs and handled like the Queen Mary?
The fact is, the new GTO is FAR more of a GTO than the new Monte Carlo is a Monte Carlo, or the new Malibu is a Malibu, or the new Impala is an Impala.
hmmm....RWD, 6-speed, V8 vs. FWD, 4-speed auto only, V6?
As perverse as it is, I'm giving GM credit for not bastardizing the GTO. You're busy whining about intangible things like soul and feel when you should be happy that it has all the good stuff: rear-wheel drive, a V8 with tons of potential, and a strong manual transmission. Oh yes, and the GTO's exhaust is a true dual exhaust, unlike the 4th-generation F-body twins.
The rest of you need to stop complaining about platform and engine sharing. It isn't going away, so accept it. The LS1 is a very good engine, completely American, and was also in the Pontiac Firebirds and Trans Ams. I didn't see anybody bitching about that.
Sure, the new GTO isn't very appealing style-wise. Blame that on Pontiac; the Monaro in it's true form is a beautiful vehicle. Second, I don't know why you are so butthurt about it being Australian...the case could be made that right now, the Australians know a ****ton more about factory performance than us Yankees. While we are still building ****loads of trucks and FWD cars, you can get a 4-door sedan down there with a turbocharged 6 or a modular V8, for example. And that's just Ford's offerings! GM (Holden) offers the 3800SC in rear wheel drive, the way it should be. They make tons of RWD, V8 powered vehicles...the Ute, the Commodore, the Monaro...hell, they were even going to build a limited run of Monaros with authentic C5R 427 Gen III smallblocks in them, but canceled because of high production costs.
Would it make you feel better if Pontiac hyped the **** out of the new GTO for months before hand, building it up into something so big that the real deal could've been beaten by your run of the mill Civic but you'd still love it? Or if it had a solid rear axle with leaf springs and handled like the Queen Mary?
The fact is, the new GTO is FAR more of a GTO than the new Monte Carlo is a Monte Carlo, or the new Malibu is a Malibu, or the new Impala is an Impala.
hmmm....RWD, 6-speed, V8 vs. FWD, 4-speed auto only, V6?
As perverse as it is, I'm giving GM credit for not bastardizing the GTO. You're busy whining about intangible things like soul and feel when you should be happy that it has all the good stuff: rear-wheel drive, a V8 with tons of potential, and a strong manual transmission. Oh yes, and the GTO's exhaust is a true dual exhaust, unlike the 4th-generation F-body twins.
The rest of you need to stop complaining about platform and engine sharing. It isn't going away, so accept it. The LS1 is a very good engine, completely American, and was also in the Pontiac Firebirds and Trans Ams. I didn't see anybody bitching about that.
strikeeagle
New Member
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- Jun 6, 2001
- Messages
- 3,326
I'm not a big fan of the retro look, so the GTO being bland doesn't disturb me too much.
Drive train wise, let's say it's 1987 all over again and Buick offered the GM with the turbo V6, or an LS1/T56/IRS. Which would you opt for?
The GTO is heavy because it's made to negotiate the ****ty Aussie roads. Looks at all the weight we add to our cars to keep them from turning into pretzels - mondo sway bars, brace this and brace that. Today's cars are getting very tubby, what with all the safety gear and conveniences. Check out 4,000 pound BMW's, for example.
Some improvements to interior and exterior styling, an LS6 or LS2, a better stereo, tailpipes on both sides of the vehicle, and I could be there - and that's stuff I speculate we'll probably see for 2005.
Don't credit the performance of the old musclecars too much. I grew up in the musclecar era, but I've stomped too many of them at the track to feel overly reverant about them, although I love them just the same...
Drive train wise, let's say it's 1987 all over again and Buick offered the GM with the turbo V6, or an LS1/T56/IRS. Which would you opt for?
The GTO is heavy because it's made to negotiate the ****ty Aussie roads. Looks at all the weight we add to our cars to keep them from turning into pretzels - mondo sway bars, brace this and brace that. Today's cars are getting very tubby, what with all the safety gear and conveniences. Check out 4,000 pound BMW's, for example.
Some improvements to interior and exterior styling, an LS6 or LS2, a better stereo, tailpipes on both sides of the vehicle, and I could be there - and that's stuff I speculate we'll probably see for 2005.
Don't credit the performance of the old musclecars too much. I grew up in the musclecar era, but I've stomped too many of them at the track to feel overly reverant about them, although I love them just the same...
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