Saw the new GTO Cavalier today

[buickman69]

Originally posted by SyHopeful
Raven,

Sure, the new GTO isn't very appealing style-wise. Blame that on Pontiac; the Monaro in it's true form is a beautiful vehicle. Second, I don't know why you are so butthurt about it being Australian...the case could be made that right now, the Australians know a ****ton more about factory performance than us Yankees. While we are still building ****loads of trucks and FWD cars, you can get a 4-door sedan down there with a turbocharged 6 or a modular V8, for example. And that's just Ford's offerings! GM (Holden) offers the 3800SC in rear wheel drive, the way it should be. They make tons of RWD, V8 powered vehicles...the Ute, the Commodore, the Monaro...hell, they were even going to build a limited run of Monaros with authentic C5R 427 Gen III smallblocks in them, but canceled because of high production costs.

Would it make you feel better if Pontiac hyped the **** out of the new GTO for months before hand, building it up into something so big that the real deal could've been beaten by your run of the mill Civic but you'd still love it? Or if it had a solid rear axle with leaf springs and handled like the Queen Mary?

The fact is, the new GTO is FAR more of a GTO than the new Monte Carlo is a Monte Carlo, or the new Malibu is a Malibu, or the new Impala is an Impala.

hmmm....RWD, 6-speed, V8 vs. FWD, 4-speed auto only, V6?

As perverse as it is, I'm giving GM credit for not bastardizing the GTO. You're busy whining about intangible things like soul and feel when you should be happy that it has all the good stuff: rear-wheel drive, a V8 with tons of potential, and a strong manual transmission. Oh yes, and the GTO's exhaust is a true dual exhaust, unlike the 4th-generation F-body twins.

The rest of you need to stop complaining about platform and engine sharing. It isn't going away, so accept it. The LS1 is a very good engine, completely American, and was also in the Pontiac Firebirds and Trans Ams. I didn't see anybody bitching about that.

AAAHHHH, no thanks!

If I want a Chevy, i'll by a Vette.

 

[Raven]

Originally posted by SyHopeful
Raven,

Would it make you feel better if Pontiac hyped the **** out of the new GTO for months before hand, building it up into something so big that the real deal could've been beaten by your run of the mill Civic but you'd still love it? Or if it had a solid rear axle with leaf springs and handled like the Queen Mary?

Well, hype or the lack thereof has nothing to do with my opinion (which is shared by MOST) about the car labled "GTO". Also, a REAL GTO would have nothing to fear from a Civic (OR the Queen Mary).

The fact is, the new GTO is FAR more of a GTO than the new Monte Carlo is a Monte Carlo, or the new Malibu is a Malibu, or the new Impala is an Impala.

hmmm....RWD, 6-speed, V8 vs. FWD, 4-speed auto only, V6?

I'll give you that - but so what? It's still NOT a GTO. It's a Holden with a GTO nameplate.

As perverse as it is, I'm giving GM credit for not bastardizing the GTO. You're busy whining about intangible things like soul and feel when you should be happy that it has all the good stuff: rear-wheel drive, a V8 with tons of potential, and a strong manual transmission. Oh yes, and the GTO's exhaust is a true dual exhaust, unlike the 4th-generation F-body twins.

The rest of you need to stop complaining about platform and engine sharing. It isn't going away, so accept it. The LS1 is a very good engine, completely American, and was also in the Pontiac Firebirds and Trans Ams. I didn't see anybody bitching about that.

First of all, I wasn't whining - I was straight in-your-face complaining that GM chose to take a damned import with no visceral appeal and lable it as a "GTO". Period, nothing more, nothing less. Platform sharing has been around and it's not going away. But that still does not give GM the right to put "GTO" on a Holden nor should they (or you) expect the diehards to say, "Wow, I'm really grateful for this."

We're not.

Secondly, the LS1 is certainly a very good engine. But the topic isn't about Firebirds, Trans Ams, Camaros, Monte Carlo's and Impala's. It's about the Cavalier - er, I mean "GTO" (*wink, wink*).

The car is not built by Pontiac, was not designed as a GTO and does not have a GTO's heart or soul. Sure, it's faster than a lame ass Monte Carlo or Impala, but again - so what?

It's still NOT a GTO. A fast, well built sedan with an LS1, yes. But it is NOT a GTO. GM took a nameplate that had meaning, history, and legend and put it on an import to hopefully sell cars. That is PRECISELY why the name "GTO" is on that car. But where is the plate/decal that says "Pontiac"? If it's a GTO, it's GOT to be a Pontiac, right?

Would you like to see Grand National emblazoned on a Tahoe? Perhaps on a Lumina? See what I mean?

That car has no more right to say "GTO" than to say "Pontiac" on it. It's NOT a Pontiac and it's NOT a "GTO". You know it and so do I. So quit trying to convince me that it IS something it's not. You will not win that one.

And please - don't confuse facts with 'whining', ok?

 

[azgn]

I don't care for the design of the new GTO, but it is a hellova lot better car than its namesake.....

I had a new 63 SS 409/425 and a decent GN would walk it any day....most GTO's were 15 sec cars and handled and stopped like 2 tons of slime

I don't want to bring back the old muscle cars! They were terrible compared to today's rides...........short of a Yenko or T-Bolt, there was nothing in the 60's that would run with your basic 6 cylinder Honda of today (or Mudstain GT for that matter), let alone anything that is even remotely fast today (14 sec and down cars....which are very common)

 

[RobR]

Very true azgn. People get all "nostalgic" when talking about old GTO's. This GTO is in the same concept as the original. Better in every respect to the original.

Most people complaining about the new GTO haven't even seen it in person. When one rolls up, you hear people always saying that they look much better in person. The size of the car is also mentioned that its bigger live than in pictures. Everybody seems to love the interior. The ride is very good, brakes are good, and performance is right there also. If you know how to drive.

One around here is running 13.3 completely stock. That's a 6 speed car, A4 cars best I've seen is 13.6. Don't remember hearing of any old GTO running that completely stock. BMR's GTO is running 11.4 on the spray.

Make mine an 05

 

[Raven]

I only have two complaints about the new Holden.

1. It is an unattractive outward design. GM could have done much better.

2. It should have been named ANYTHING other than GTO.

Other than that, yes, it's a well built, powerful sedan that is RWD. That is good and GM needs a car like that in its lineup.

But to name it a GTO when it isn't even a PONTIAC? No way.

I've seen it in person - it is an uninspiring design. Maybe it will get better looking in the future, but for now, I do not care for it.

But hey, that's just an opinion.

 

[TRiv]

Originally posted by SyHopeful


As perverse as it is, I'm giving GM credit for not bastardizing the GTO. You're busy whining about intangible things like soul and feel when you should be happy that it has all the good stuff: rear-wheel drive, a V8 with tons of potential, and a strong manual transmission.

The rest of you need to stop complaining about platform and engine sharing. It isn't going away, so accept it. The LS1 is a very good engine, completely American, and was also in the Pontiac Firebirds and Trans Ams. I didn't see anybody bitching about that.

Having an opinion does not constitute whining or complaining. We are all potential customers to any make or model, and we all make our own decisions based on our own judgement, tastes, and preference. My opinion, a car should have an engine manufactured by the brand name on the car, and have close to or at least%50 involvement in the cars manufacture, if not, it seems like false advertising , especially in a performance car. If that does not matter to others, that's their opinion.

After reading and posting on several of the new GTO posts I wonder how it is that even though those of us who are dissapointed in it (styling, import status, Chevy engine, etc.), still acknowledge its performance and good points, many who think it is one of the best things ever, will not admit this is not a Pontiac, and continue to compare it to something it has no relation to? No this is no longer the 60's No s***, the original GTO's in original stock form are not quick by todays standards (nor yesterdays), but this is today and there are fast old GTO's, there is fast everything everywhere, street rods, muscle cars, imports, trucks, sports cars, etc. The Chevy GTO ( I do like the motor though) as with anything else will be compared to whatever it pulls up to!

 

[ACME RACING]

6.0

GM should have used the Gran Prix with a Camaro sub frame (rear wheel drive) underpinnings , since the GP is a Pontiac already.
The new GTO will have a 6.0 litre with a tad below 400hp coming out next year Then you can slap a ProCharger on it and make 500hp , now just take off the GTO badges and put on some Cavalier badges to look cool.....

 

[Raven]

Re: 6.0

Originally posted by ACME RACING
GM should have used the Gran Prix with a Camaro sub frame (rear wheel drive) underpinnings , since the GP is a Pontiac already.

An excellent suggestion! Too bad GM didn't already think of this. I would think this would have been an easy to engineer project. But knowing how bureauacracy works, I'm sure the bean counters, EPA pleasers, or just overall idiots would have shot it down.

Great idea though for at least a darn close to REAL GTO.

 

[wlaukaitis]

I saw my first today as I was leaving the work parking lot. It was Pee-pee yellow, I was barely able to hear the exhaust note. seemed kinda small

 

[Bobtempest]

Originally posted by GNSCOTT
Good luck to GTO competing against a beautifully redesigned Mustang this summer which should be at least just as fast and alot cheaper.

VERY TRUE!!!

We will see how the retro look does, I believe the Mustang will sell like crazy. I wish the GTO egg had some style like the Crossfire. The Crossfire has great style, but lacks performance.

I would rather buy another REAL Pontiac powered old GTO for the cost of a new one. You may not be as fast on the the street, but you would look cool. Then again, my '67 at 11.26 and only fears GNs, mainly the one it sets next to it in my garage.

GM needs direction. It could be worst, it is RWD. Maybe there is hope.

 

[MeanBuicks]

From UltimateGTO.com back in 2002...

 

[RobR]

Re: From UltimateGTO.com back in 2002...

Originally posted by MeanBuicks

Someone post one of the 64 GTO and see how good it stands out. It'll look just like any other car of the day, especially Pontiacs since they all looked the same. Ummm...kind of like today.

 

[DFAST1TTYPE]

Rather than get into a long dissertation…

Bottom line is that performance (at least in my book) is what is all about. GTO has it.

So just be careful, one might come around and blow your doors of. There is always someone faster at some point in a given situation.

 

[Pronto]

There is no comparison for performance. The new GTO (stock) would kill any GTO (stock) of old. Modern safety standards and handleing are lightyears ahead of the old ones. But the look is missing. My favorite is the '65 followed by the '70. Least favorite is the '73, I don't count the '74 although one is excellent shape does bring a good buck for a Ventura.

 

[Raven]

Originally posted by Pronto
There is no comparison for performance. The new GTO (stock) would kill any GTO (stock) of old. Modern safety standards and handleing are lightyears ahead of the old ones.

I totally disagree - if the racing is at the strip. A '70 Ram Air IV or the 455 H.O. (with modern tires of course) would certainly hand the current insert name of car its rear. But if you're talking pure factory stock versus today's car, on the skinny bias ply tires made in the late '60's and early '70's, then yes, the new car most likely would win due to a tremendous traction advantage.

Most of the new cars have tested in the high 13's at best and with upper '90's on mph. Ok, that's not bad but it is not that bad ass either.

On the twisties, that would be a different matter - the new car would show its tail lights quickly. But we're comparing technology that is now 35 years advanced - the new car should be able to run and hide from any of the old muscle cars but it can't.

I will agree about the look 'missing'. That is oh - so - true.

 

[RobR]

The more they are showing up at the tracks, the better the numbers will be. 6spd cars are a good .3 faster. Most around here are in the 13.5 range, best of 13.3 bone stock. A4 cars are in the upper 13's with a best of 13.6 bone stock. These are the ones showing up here at least. 6spd cars in the 103-104mph range, A4 cars in the 100-101mph range for the quicker ones.

Then are the ones that run 14's. Those are the guys that everyone seems to claim they all run. Look at their slip and you'll see 60' times of 2.3 or worse. Its all driver for the most part.

They are easily capable of running good numbers. And it won't take too much to put them in the 12's.

 

[CM_Ls1]

i am ashamed for you guys... that you don't even know your history. (an you call yourselves American Car enthusiasts)

the tempest = GTO

the lemans = GTO

the friggen NOVa/Vega = GTO

and all the pontiac family; catalina, bonnie , GP , etc etc had the same basic looks.

pony cars looked different to the mainstream cars, muscle cars did not look different other than scoops and stripes, in pontiac, in chevrolet, in buick, chryslers, all where derivatives and shared the same body as the hum drum family cars.

thats why i think you guys are very young and don't remember those year...

you can all fap fap fap , all you like, but unless you can give me some proof you have ZERO credibility in my book and are just a bunch of Whiners

and don't give me this crap about how the GTO was the most powerful in its day , because only one model appears in the top 50 most powerful musclecars list, compared to other offerings they where fairly up-spec semi luxury powerhouses (much like the new one).

 

[MeanBuicks]

I believe most here realize that the original GTO was an offshoot of the "hum drum family cars". Kinda like our beloved turbo Regals.

The whole point of this thread was basically that the 2004 GTO looks much like today's hum drum family cars...and they look like doody.

Other than that, it seems to be a nice, well performing car. It's like settling for an ugly chick because she's rich.

 

[toofastforyou]

It's a matter of personal taste...

After reading the three last pages of posts, I think that it all comes down to this: It's a matter of personal taste...the ones who like it will buy it, and the ones who do not like it, won't. That's it!
I don't care if it comes from Australia or not... Like it or not, Holden's are part of the GM family, and deserve to be treated as such, and the continent on which they are built has nothing to do with the quality of the vehicle itself...!

Claude

 

[Raven]

GM_LS1 - too bad that you choose to look at OLD data that is incomplete when referencing 'powerful musclecars'. Even the '64 GTO had a faster time than the Holden so I'm not sure where you're getting your info. Have you ever driven/raced a 455 HO GTO?

And yes, we're all aware that the GTO was an option on another car. But you also are aware that NONE of the GTO purists consider the 73 and up "GTO" as an actual GTO, just like Mustang purists look down upon the 74 - 79 (I think '79 was the last year of the Pinto/Tang).

Secondly, no one is saying the older GTO was the most powerful musclecar in its day - only that the '70 HO 455 and some others WERE quicker in the quarter than the new Holden. Perhaps you would have picked up on that had you read the entire posts?

Lastly, I'm 50 years old (how old are you?). I grew up with the GTO's, the Hemi Cuda's, the Chevelle SS's and all the others. I've most likely owned and driven more actual musclecars than you could ever dream about so I know - based upon actual seat time at the track - what those cars will do. I'm not bragging, I have simply had a lot of time in those cars over the years, not just read magazines or surfed the web sites.

Yes, the Holden is a nice, modern RWD, V8 Powered car.

But it is not a GTO for the very same reason your very erroneous statement "the friggen NOVa/Vega = GTO" does not hold water.

The Holden is NOT a Pontiac nor is it even built by Pontiac. Hell, you could call a Park Avenue a Chevy and a Cavalier a Cadilac if your reasoning held water that, if it's built by ANY GM division, it's ok to call it a GTO. At least when GM stole from one and gave to another before, they put the brand name on it (such as those horrid compact Chevy based "Cadillacs" from a few years back.

Why not take the Corvette, rebadge it and call it just "442" without putting "Oldsmobile" on it? Same difference, right? Or, take the Cadillac CTS-V, rebadge it and put "Camaro SS" on it's flanks but not Chevrolet - same thing, right?

This Holden (and that's what it is) simply says "GTO". If you're gonna steal the thunder, then at least give the car some heritage.

It ought to say Pontiac on it to at least give it some credibility.

It ought to look distinctive and muscular to give it some attitude.

And it ought to LOOK the part of a GTO, not just try to ride the coat tails of real GTO's that have come and gone before.