SE Turbo Front Mount Intercooler

[Russ Merritt]

One more thing, has any of you put a temp sensor before the intake, like somewhere around the outlet of the IC and gotten any data? I would suspect the higher intake temp with a sensor mounted in the plenum or lower manifold would tend to include some heat soak causing higher temps at the line, and for some of us, higher false temps the first 1\8th. It may not be much, but none the less data a little more accurate related to the efficiency of the IC.

Yes, both my cars have the MAT down bottom right after the intercooler.
92* at the start, 161* at the finish, first 2 runs, @ 26-27# boost
92* at the start, 171* at the finish, last run. @ 28-29# boost. Not an attack Jack, just the facts.

 

[top gun]

Where is that BS flag now? I'm sorry but that is complete BS. I have been running one on the same engine for 3 years on hundreds of 10.18-10.50 passes. The only headgasket issues I have ever had have been lack of fuel related not inlet temp related and never had any engine damage at all(knock on wood).

That kind of untrue, inaccurate, unfounded statement is no help to anyone and it just makes it look like you have some personal vendetta against Jack. What has he done to you Dave to warrant this kind of personal attack?

I have no personal vendetta against Jack nor do I have anything to gain by supporting one intercooler or another.

All I have done is posted data to let everyone know where your inlet temps should be to run fast with reliability.

The smart guys will compare data and make changes if needed, others will be led around like sheep continuing to blow headgaskets and motors.

 

[odell4o8]

coolers

Ted, dave, have you ever tested a old tony dequik front mount? i had one before i bought jacks , my son has it now and i can trade him mine for it, it is one of the first ones that tony made, just wondered if it is any better or worst. wiring is still a bitch. thanks oc,

 

[cdsttype]

intercooler data

new england dragway
9/28/2005
1pm

new combo 235cu iron head
innovative 71x trim dual ball bearing
cottons 3.5 down pipe
innovative pro gate
cottons front mount intercooler

several mid 10 second passes
back to back no cool down
no more than 7psi launches

iat located in intake
coolant temp 191*!!!

start temp 125* end temp 122*
worst case 29psi boost

a personal freind has a tsm car also
with the same intercooler
a different turbo but all the good tsm stuff
he runs hotter temps than me alot of things can
effect temps ie: cam timing, ignition timing, but
only a qualified technician would recognize this
higher egt's mean higher housing temps.

start temp 125 end temp 114*
best case 24psi

ambient temp 70*

remember start temp in the intake!!!

I think you know where you can put your bs flag :tongue:

 

[Otto J]

Remember, You want to be as close to ambient as possible,Not close to launch temp.
I dont know that any of the things you listed ffect intake temp,If your sensor is in the pipe or intake for that matter, your cam timing and igntion timing are not gonna effect the temp in the up pipe, and again this is a maybe 700hp car.Not a 1000hp car.

 

[cdsttype]

if i understand you properly you feel their is no
heat saturation from the intake or from
the ex housing to compressor housing but you
feel from your previous post that you beleive in heat
saturation from the radiator.

radiator=190*
ex housing=1400*

 

[Otto J]

Cant be sure why your car is so hot leaving the line on a 70* day?
Ive never seen more than 102* on a 98* day! with the same intercooler
You may wanna look into that.

Remember every 10* lower you can get it equates to 10hp,If your intercooler cooled down to were it shold be in the low 100's or lower on a 70* day at the traps,you would have another 20-30 hp on hand.

all those things can bring up temps,But not the radiator,My fans are on at 150+ pulling cool air thru the intercooler thru the radiator.So rad temps are not gonna effect intercooler temps,
As far as intake heat saturation,one the turbo forces any air thru the cool intercooler it pass the sensor immediatly and the temps will lower that fast.

I have methanol datalog that show my temps at the traps to be about 5* above ambient,as soon as you lift throttle and the methanol shuts down the temps skyrocket,cause thats how hot the intercooler is at that point.I run right around 28-30# of boost and have datalogs to show this with a 5 bar map sensor that reads to 60#S.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Ted, dave, have you ever tested a old tony dequik front mount? i had one before i bought jacks , my son has it now and i can trade him mine for it, it is one of the first ones that tony made, just wondered if it is any better or worst. wiring is still a bitch. thanks oc,

Sent private message OC.

 

[top gun]

new england dragway
9/28/2005
1pm

new combo 235cu iron head
innovative 71x trim dual ball bearing
cottons 3.5 down pipe
innovative pro gate
cottons front mount intercooler

several mid 10 second passes
back to back no cool down
no more than 7psi launches

iat located in intake
coolant temp 191*!!!

start temp 125* end temp 122*
worst case 29psi boost

a personal freind has a tsm car also
with the same intercooler
a different turbo but all the good tsm stuff
he runs hotter temps than me alot of things can
effect temps ie: cam timing, ignition timing, but
only a qualified technician would recognize this
higher egt's mean higher housing temps.

start temp 125 end temp 114*
best case 24psi

ambient temp 70*

remember start temp in the intake!!!

I think you know where you can put your bs flag :tongue:

I ran 9.30 with the same turbo and low boost level. The only problem I see holding you back is your high inlet temps. Get those temps down and you should have some easy 9 second passes, good luck!

 

[bruce]

MAT, Manifold AIr Temperature.
IAT, Intake Air Temperature.

MAT, is what matters.
It includes things like heat saturation, radiant heat from the oil, cooling system, etc. etc.. IAT, while greater then nothing, really don't reflect as much as MATs do.

MATs also allow for a slight fudge factor for fuel temps..

The tune will effect the MAT.

So while ya'll might want to agrue about IATs, you might be missing the big picture. It's about MATs, and what the ecm's code does with the information, that's important.

Oh, and BTW, the code the ecm needs to use to optimise the fuel and timing modeling, ain't as easy as what one might think. While using a *True VE Table*, or ideal gas calculation sounds peachy keen, there's more to it then just the gas law for figuring out the timing end of things.

If you want to look at IATs, for you own purposes, that's fine, but trying to compare them, to someone else's in a meaningful way, isn't going to fully resolve anything, IMO, it ignores too many other variables. And, doing back to back tests on a given car, that is using the currently available code(s), isn't going to tell you everything either, since they still seem to be less then perfect.

But, I don't run 9s, so feel free to ignore me.

 

[Otto J]

But, I don't run 9s, so feel free to ignore me.

WE WILL BRUCE,your ECM and our ECU's are different.

Either way if the sensor is in the intake tract after the intercooler those are intake temps, Mat temp will be the same one the throttle has been opened and there is flow thru the intercooler

 

[bruce]

Either way if the sensor is in the intake tract after the intercooler those are intake temps, Mat temp will be the same one the throttle has been opened and there is flow thru the intercooler

OK, so during staging, detonating the motor due to high MATs, isn't an issue with you?. The manifold does get hot, and it doesn't drop it's temperature immediately, when the throttle snaps open. If your IAT is 95d, and the MAT is 110 on one pass when you leave the line, and then the next pass is the IAT is 95d, and the MAT is 140d, do you think the car will leave the same?. If it's all about IAT, then why does coolant temp also count?.

Maybe rather then discounting me, you might ask the aftermarket ecm guys to rethink what they're doing code wise to optimise things.
Yes, intercooler design matters, but it's never going to be put to full advantage until the code allows for it.

Oh, BTW, yes, the calculation does in fact need to be somewhat flow related, which means being more then just using a VE table related correction.

You can swap I/Cs, and do comparisons all day long, but until the code allows for optimising the tune, you're not going to get consistant results.
At least with using the MAT, you have an accurate, reference temp., when you left the line.

 

[Big Stu]

Oh snap!!

 

[Otto J]

Well, during staging i dont have what i would call high temps,At least not enough for detonation,Do you feel ill be detonating at the line around 100*,But not in 3rd gear at 7200 when the intake temp is around 190*???

Tell ya what Bruce,Why dont you stop posting hear, beating up on ecu's that are out there, And go build your own fancy ecu since your so smart,with the proper code in which you see fit,Maybe the guys running in the 6s with F.A.S.T ecus could be in the 5's if you built it

I never said i had consistant results,Jack posted that.

I just want my temps going in my motor while at full throttle to be reasonable to ambient.

And no matter what you leave the line at, you want it as close to ambient during hte run as possible,not a steady climb up!I leave the line no more than 10* above ambient,So my launch temps are not an issue at all.

 

[John Wilde]

Well, during staging i dont have what i would call high temps,At least not enough for detonation,Do you feel ill be detonating at the line around 100*,But not in 3rd gear at 7200 when the intake temp is around 190*???

Tell ya what Bruce,Why dont you stop posting hear, beating up on ecu's that are out there, And go build your own fancy ecu since your so smart,with the proper code in which you see fit,Maybe the guys running in the 6s with F.A.S.T ecus could be in the 5's if you built it

I never said i had consistant results,Jack posted that.

I just want my temps going in my motor while at full throttle to be reasonable to ambient.

Can't we all get along???

 

[Otto J]

I have no problem getting along, youll see when you meet me.
I just tell it like "I" see it, Some people dont like it.This thread was about intercoolers,it became about one ability,No somehow ECU code is coming up.
As soon as i saw Bruce had posted i knew the word "CODE" would be brought up :biggrin:

10-4 rubber ducky{----code for see ya later

 

[John Wilde]

I have no problem getting along, youll see when you meet me.
I just tell it like "I" see it, Some people dont like it.This thread was about intercoolers,it became about one ability,No somehow ECU code is coming up.
As soon as i saw Bruce had posted i knew the word "CODE" would be brought up :biggrin:

10-4 rubber ducky{----code for see ya later

Are you coming to the super street car nationals???
That would be sweet...

 

[Otto J]

No but will be ther next wed morn hanging out with Len

 

[odell4o8]

coolers

if we raced when it was below 50 degrees our 20 year old buicks would go faster and our intercoolers would do their thing, when we get the wiring and the engine back in my car it should be in the 30 degree range we are going to heat up the tires with a blow torch and maybe we an run faster and do some braggin, looks like i may be buying jacks big cooler.

 

[HighPSI]

Are you coming to the super street car nationals???
That would be sweet...

John,
I'll be at Formoso(?) the 17th - 21st tuning on a PSCA DR car