Stage?

[DRWKESSLER]

What Are The Diffrences On The Stages Meaning That I Want To Build A High Ten Sec. Car My T Type Is Stock Except Frt Mnt Inter. And Rear End Built Up Any Clue As To How Much It Will Cost Me Thanks

 

[Blazer406]

Welcome to the Turbo Buick community.

Stage refers to a heavy duty block built for racing..... similar to the bowtie block for the Chevy's.....

There are Stage 1 and Stage 2...... many different variations. These motors are very expensive to build... and IMHO... not needed if you "only" want to run in the 10's. A good stock based '86 or '87 109 casting block can be built much cheaper than a stage motor and hold 600+ HP properly outfitted.

Cost? LOL...... It is expensive anyway you slice it...... but you can go low 11's on the stock unopened engine with the right goodies... a good tune... and traction..... maybe even dip into the 10's.

What the motors can't stand is detonation. You run higher boost and/or higher timing.... you must take small babysteps... watching for knock (need a good datalogger and audible knock detector). You can sneak into the 10's probably with a billet 62 mm turbo on a stock un-opened motor......

Clear as mud?

 

[jdpolzin]

109= best bang for the buck

Stage 1 = a little more money

Stage 2 = your house, your wife, your entire bank account, loans, bankruptcy!!!

 

[stagemonster]

109= best bang for the buck

Stage 1 = a little more money

Stage 2 = your house, your wife, your entire bank account, loans, bankruptcy!!!

this is true

 

[278cikiller]

stage motor

109= best bang for the buck

Stage 1 = a little more money

Stage 2 = your house, your wife, your entire bank account, loans, bankruptcy!!!

You got that right on the stage II motors.

 

[DRWKESSLER]

Welcome to the Turbo Buick community.

Stage refers to a heavy duty block built for racing..... similar to the bowtie block for the Chevy's.....

There are Stage 1 and Stage 2...... many different variations. These motors are very expensive to build... and IMHO... not needed if you "only" want to run in the 10's. A good stock based '86 or '87 109 casting block can be built much cheaper than a stage motor and hold 600+ HP properly outfitted.

Cost? LOL...... It is expensive anyway you slice it...... but you can go low 11's on the stock unopened engine with the right goodies... a good tune... and traction..... maybe even dip into the 10's.

What the motors can't stand is detonation. You run higher boost and/or higher timing.... you must take small babysteps... watching for knock (need a good datalogger and audible knock detector). You can sneak into the 10's probably with a billet 62 mm turbo on a stock un-opened motor......

Clear as mud?

traction i have micky t s with 8.5 10 bolt moser axles spool rt rear air bag etc where should i start intercooler? thanks for the help

 

[Blazer406]

Start a new thread in the general tech section.

Post all your current mods....from any thing that isn't stock that relates to traction or performance.

List your honest goals.....

Include how much the car will get driven on the street vs the track...... whether pump gas or race gas.... or alky injection. (IMHO the alky should be near the top of your purchase list... pending you disclosing your current setup and what your plans are)

You will get some good feedback.....your budget will likely be the limiting factor (it always is for me).

Don't get in a hurry.....plan your work....then work your plan. It doesn't have to be done "all at once"

 

[Mac in SD]

Yes, it's true, only millionaires can afford a Stage motor.

 

[Blazer406]

Yes, it's true, only millionaires can afford a Stage motor.

Why so sarcastic? :tongue:

Bottom line is.... 10k - 15k will get you in the ballpark if you do some of the work yourself for a stage 2 motor.... with decent pieces.... for a nothing special stage 2.

A fairly nice (low 10 sec capable) 109 build.... again if you do a good portion of the work yourself..... is half that...

 

[jdpolzin]

I'm no millionaire, believe me, I'm an unemployed electrician!!! BUT, I was able to build a very nice Stage 2! Cost was about $20K plus the rest of the supporting parts so the car can handle the Stage 2: full billet rollerized trans, rear end, driveshaft, FAST XFI, Fuel Lines, Fuel Pump, CAS V2 front Mount, big injectors, frame bracing, etc, etc, etc. Point I'm trying to make is that there is a LOT more to it than just the motor. Once you get started on a Stage 2 build, you'l have a lot more to buy to back that motor up. Best idea for a primarily street car is get an off center block so everything pretty much bolts up like a stock block. You'll just have to make an oiling system for the block and weld a turbo drain back bung into the oil pan.

All said and done, it was the best $37K I have ever spent! That didnt even incude the cost of the car, brakes, suspension, interior, paint and body, etc. God I have to stop thinking about it otherwise I think I may cry!!!!!!

A nice thing about Stage cars over 109 cars is the value of your car is always going to be higher than the 109 cars.

 

[Blazer406]

Some used... some new parts:

Block - $3000 - $3500
Crank - $1000
Rods - $1000
Pistons - $700
Heads - $3000
Rockers - $500
Roller cam, lifters, etc... kit - $1000


Machine work? $$ ??
rod bearings, main bearings, cam bearings, oil system, etc..... etc... $$ ??

Engine assembly $$ ??

Lots of missing pieces.... it will add up in a hurry.

You'll pass 10k up before you get to the "bolt-on" pieces you really need to make the combo work...

jdplozin is a good example of a total package $$ to "do-it-right".

 

[Mac in SD]

Some used... some new parts:

Block - $3000 - $3500
Crank - $1000
Rods - $1000
Pistons - $700
Heads - $3000
Rockers - $500
Roller cam, lifters, etc... kit - $1000


Machine work? $$ ??
rod bearings, main bearings, cam bearings, oil system, etc..... etc... $$ ??

Engine assembly $$ ??

Lots of missing pieces.... it will add up in a hurry.

You'll pass 10k up before you get to the "bolt-on" pieces you really need to make the combo work...

jdplozin is a good example of a total package $$ to "do-it-right".

Sheesh! Doesn't anybody buy used stuff anymore?

Block - $1500-2000 Not pristine, but good enough
Crank - $1000 yeah, that's about right for a BMS, used. But a CAT would do for less
Rods - $400 or so for SCAT or K-1. Less for used Carillos.
Pistons - $500
Heads - $3000? Are you kidding? Used S2 heads for $400 a set.
Rockers - $200 or less for used T&D's
Roller cam, lifters, etc... kit - $1000 - okay, I'll buy that.

Now - I'm not talking about a Quick 16, 7 second ride. But a 10-second motor that will live a long, long time at that level.

 

[Cheeseburger]

Expect to pay $25,000 for a motor and trans and that is if you build the motor yourself.
I am sure you could slap something together cheaper though if you want.
I am pretty sure the market is dry for new stage parts.
For your goal of 10s, you do not need to consider stage parts at all.
If and when you need to go into the motor it can and well start to get expensive for machine work parts/labour......

 

[49-blues]

Mac in SD- I LL take a set of S2 heads and TD rockers for $600. Let me know when you can ship.

 

[Blazer406]

Sheesh! Doesn't anybody buy used stuff anymore?

Block - $1500-2000 Not pristine, but good enough
Crank - $1000 yeah, that's about right for a BMS, used. But a CAT would do for less
Rods - $400 or so for SCAT or K-1. Less for used Carillos.
Pistons - $500
Heads - $3000? Are you kidding? Used S2 heads for $400 a set.
Rockers - $200 or less for used T&D's
Roller cam, lifters, etc... kit - $1000 - okay, I'll buy that.

Now - I'm not talking about a Quick 16, 7 second ride. But a 10-second motor that will live a long, long time at that level.

On center or off center?

If you run the stage 2 heads...the stock style intake won't fit will it? .... so everything won't bolt up.

Also... if you are building an on center motor....allot of stuff off your old setup won't bolt in.....

Also... I've been watching used "offcenter" stage blocks for the past couple years..... can't say I remember any usable ones in the $1500 - $2000 range....

I also haven't seen any $200 T&D setups...

Not calling you a lie.... but the prices you quoted are a deal-of-a-lifetime prices... not something most folks are going to wait around on to build their stage motor.

 

[turbobuick]

109= best bang for the buck

Stage 1 = a little more money

Stage 2 = your house, your wife, your entire bank account, loans, bankruptcy!!!

I was going to avoid this debate

I have this discussion with my buddy who likes to build SBC stuff all the time and he agrees. If you build a quality motor it costs the same no matter what it is. Good high quality parts such as heads crank, rods pistons and machine work all cost the same no matter what make or model engine, even SBC.

That being said I think there is a serious misconception in the Buick world concerning the 109 vs stage block issue due to some of the impressive times seen in TSM. I think a lot of avg racers see what is being done in TSM and think the same can be done with thier combos. The facts are some of those top TSM engines cost significantly MORE to build and have significantly MORE custom machine work in them than my TSO motor does. To boot they are typically on borrowed time since the block is significantly weaker. Look at how many cracked blocks just last year in TSM!

If you are debating building a good motor and buying quality parts you will have $1000 to $3000 additional into a motor using a S2 block depending on what you buy a block for (new TA vs used iron). The only difference is really the cost of the block everything else is typically the same if you are using production style heads (S2 heads are another story). BTW I just put my back up motor together and have less than $6k in my short block and no chinese junk either.

IMO if I had a good crank and planned on building anything over 600hp and didn't plan to class race I wouldn't even consider a 109 block. Did you ever add up what a well prepped 109 block costs after girdle, main caps machine work etc? $1500 or more? Spend the extra $1500 and get 14 heads bolts and four bolt mains

 

[Mac in SD]

Mac in SD- I LL take a set of S2 heads and TD rockers for $600. Let me know when you can ship.

I'll ship you a set of used ASA S2 heads with Titanium valves for $400 today.

I'll have to check my bag of T&D's and see if there's a full set, but I'll sell you those for $200.

Let me know.

 

[jdpolzin]

I dont think the original poster understood what Stage 1 Stage 2 meant. By reading his post, I think he thought it meant stages of mods.

 

[odell4o8]

heads

Mac in SD- I LL take a set of S2 heads and TD rockers for $600. Let me know when you can ship.

Need any more, good pair of stage heads (ruggles ported) t&d s rockers, push rods, lifters, valve covers, intake one offcenter one oncenter, carb. intakes. ported to match heads, cheap,,, blocks i sold one last month on center cross bolt mains 4 inch bore. it had been repaired, (pain rail welded) i sold it to a friend for 800.00 bucks, i have lots of stage parts including 3 running turbo engines, and i dont have as munch in all 3 as some people have in their 109 tsm engines, sorry to hack your thread, oc

 

[Cheeseburger]

The stage II heads mentioned may be good as a core, but expect to put about a g note into them (or more) for springs/spring cups/retainers/locks/valve job/machine work etc.
Most NA stage heads have weak used up springs on them which are not suitable for a turbocharged application, i.m.o.