Switching TSA to a new class TTS

Thumper

Active Member
May 25, 2001
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(I never said anything about ported vs non ported.

You cant allow aluminum heads (or champion irons?) if you're looking for a 12-10.5 second class. )

Please help me understand how to keep " champion iron" heads out of a class without any disassembly to verify? That would kill tech, making it difficult.

A lot of street cars have aluminum heads so that is one rule I struggle with but was trying to allow?
 

achalmersman

Active Member
May 28, 2012
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Delaware
(I never said anything about ported vs non ported.

You cant allow aluminum heads (or champion irons?) if you're looking for a 12-10.5 second class. )

Please help me understand how to keep " champion iron" heads out of a class without any disassembly to verify? That would kill tech, making it difficult.

A lot of street cars have aluminum heads so that is one rule I struggle with but was trying to allow?
Forgive my igorance but are champion heads 8445 cores? And if not is there no visible things to distinguish the 2?

As far as the aluminum heads you said you wanted a 12-10.5 class. So unless a pass faster than 10.5 disqualifies you how can you allow aluminum heads?

And for the life of me I'm still struggling to see the logic in restricting certain fuel systems and exhaust systems but heads be free for all if the purpose of rules is to limit power

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achalmersman

Active Member
May 28, 2012
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I really feel like I should shut up now. I've said my piece, stated my opinion. Rightfully I have no right to debate this. I have not participated in any races before so I have no right to request anything. I will humbly step back now and let you guys build your class. I honestly didnt mean to muddy up your thread and thank you for working on this. I know what its like to be the guy that does all the work for something for everybody to enjoy and everybody is a critic

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Thumper

Active Member
May 25, 2001
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(Forgive my igorance but are champion heads 8445 cores? And if not is there no visible things to distinguish the 2?)


Champion heads are normally 8445 castings, some have an engraving, some don't

(As far as the aluminum heads you said you wanted a 12-10.5 class. So unless a pass faster than 10.5 disqualifies you how can you allow aluminum heads?)


I know of some street cars with aluminum heads that have not surpassed the well ported irons. Maybe it should only be iron head rule, that would kick out at least 4 or 5 possible racers.

(And for the life of me I'm still struggling to see the logic in restricting certain fuel systems and exhaust systems but heads be free for all if the purpose of rules is to limit power)

I also struggle, sometimes even with myself;)
 

Missy

Member
Oct 20, 2015
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I wouldnt want to run a time capped class personally. I would rather loose to a better driver and or car. Hell I ran 10.99 on a unopened engine. Don't worry about me I'm thinking TAI is what I'll dip my toes in. I just figured I would throw out my $0.02 as a new person interested in participating in events

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No worries here. That's a lot more pocket change you are throwing in for someone that has never participated.

I think you are missing the original point to the class change. TSA was a very restrictive class that scared off a lot of potential racers due to the rules. Just in case you are unfamiliar with the class, the cars had to look like they rolled off the assembly line. The only thing we could change was wheel and tires. The whole premise of the change is to open up rules to make it easier for people to join in the fun and feel like they have a chance to be competitive.

I have said it before and will say it again. Sometimes what you think you need isn't what you necessarily do. Race rules cannot be written around particular cars just because someone feels like their car needs this or that to run faster or just because it looks better under the hood. I will be one to have to make changes in order to be competitive and it doesn't bother me one bit. It is a bittersweet goodbye to a class I loved but hopefully a promising new beginning.

Just my 2 cents.

Missy
 

bison

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Dec 19, 2005
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"THS and TAI have solid 9 sec cars in them, TAI has like 5 rules and its fun. Maybe loosen the rules and just cap it at 10.50 or 10.90 is as fast as you can go, and run heads up?"


Well, rules are a way to put a cap on et, at least for a short period of time until someone maximizes a combination. This is why we should not allow 9 sec parts in a 10 sec class.

Let me know of any other way to cap the cars at 10.5 to 10.9. Maybe slic? Even some of them are on 9 sec capable cars.

Yes, it will be a heads up class by the way.

I would like to make an average street car class, for the 12 to mid 10 cars, but everybody's cars are so much different that it makes rules ( a cap ) a very difficult hurdle.
58mm (as measured) or smaller compressor inducer would cap them at 10.50. The turbo is pretty much the limitation in all these classes.


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Thumper

Active Member
May 25, 2001
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I agree, that is why I have not posted a turbo rule as of yet. One problem I am facing is the disassembly of every entry to measure a turbo inlet, a chance of scratching a polished cold air kit, etc, etc. My thinking was a 59mm 60-1 or at the largest a 62, but tech will be a pain in the ass either way.

Every car in TTS would have to remove the cai in order to measure. Is every one willing to?

Bison, how many street cars owners are buying 60-1 vs 62s?
 

bison

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I agree, that is why I have not posted a turbo rule as of yet. One problem I am facing is the disassembly of every entry to measure a turbo inlet, a chance of scratching a polished cold air kit, etc, etc. My thinking was a 59mm 60-1 or at the largest a 62, but tech will be a pain in the ass either way.

Every car in TTS would have to remove the cai in order to measure. Is every one willing to?

Bison, how many street cars owners are buying 60-1 vs 62s?
60-1 is too much. 62 is a 9 sec turbo. The owner can remove the inlet. If their worried about scratching they shouldn't be racing. You asked how to slow the cars down to 10.50 or slower. That's how. 58mm or less compressor inducer. You could allow whatever inducer but require 57mm or smaller turbine exducer but that would complicate inspecting even further. The quick racer is still going to have all their ducks in a row and will purpose build around the rules. The turbo is a good flow regulator


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Thumper

Active Member
May 25, 2001
599
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Kentucky
Well, tech of the top 3 is not feasible. If those are found to be illegal it effects the entire ladder, then we would have to run the entire class again to be fair.

No, everyone who participates will be afforded equal opportunity and follow the same rules.

That is how it will be.
 

johnplogii

Senior citizen
Aug 13, 2005
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I read the thread thinking it would still be very similar just a little bit looser allowing very minor things like head studs, valve cover spacers to allow the use of roller rockers, possibly girdles and so on. Only small changes to open it up, speed it up and still look completely stock to 99% of us. I personally like seeing these cars go faster and don't understand the logic of slowing them down or putting a cap on classes. with the rules listed on page 1 I could change a few body panels which would get me close to the minimum weight and would fit right in!

The full exhaust rule is just keeping with our theme "going fast with class" open exhaust is to loud and racey in my opinion.
 

kshef

Member
Sep 6, 2003
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I read the thread thinking it would still be very similar just a little bit looser allowing very minor things like head studs, valve cover spacers to allow the use of roller rockers, possibly girdles and so on. Only small changes to open it up, speed it up and still look completely stock to 99% of us.
I think this is the way to go. Maintain the "stock appearing" spirit while allowing tasteful modifications that non-Buick guys would assume to be stock.
 

TurboTnZ06

Go on red!
May 7, 2002
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Not many at car shows or local tracks know what stock is or isn't. I told what really was a 10.80 Mustang I was gonna race I just had a 12 sec car stock with bolt-ons, he said his ran 11's, so may be a good race. He surely thought I'd run 11's and was just sandbagging. Little did he know. I didn't go solid roller on the new cam, but I fired it up this summer with just the downpipe open, and it sounded like those angry half dozen 9.0 sec Buicks in TSM in the pits that idle at 1200rpm or more. Don Cruz says my motor should make "big power"

Maybe a working minimum HVAC temperature test at the vents?

Here's my version of stock appearing, yet it is easier to count the things that are stock vs not. Even my stock rail has bolt-ons with -8 feed and -6 return with an Aeromotive -6 regulator near the stock location, has a 90* with a custom TurboFabricator adapter that bolts to the stock return bracket. A/C lines have condensation because street car. TSM race ported GN1 aluminum heads. Grumpy would say I don't need XFI to run 9's, but really I'll want XFI and then I'll turn it up to run mid 9's in THS/TAI now that I have a PTC 9.5 to finally put the power down.

 

696

Active Member
Jun 11, 2009
798
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I suppose you could but your going to have serious money in the heads and valvetrain. You wont do it with untouched 8445s.

I fail to see your point though. Your initial proposed rules would allow any head. But no aftermarket fuel rail.... Those champion fuel rails are what makes an 8 second car!

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I never said anything about ported vs non ported. Yea I would think 93 and alky would help limit power. Otherwise c16 and alky with manifold pressure in the 40s would yeild some impressive numbers on an unopened longblock

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Untouched = Non ported...... Last time I checked.
 

achalmersman

Active Member
May 28, 2012
993
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Delaware
Untouched = Non ported...... Last time I checked.
If you look at my origional rule statement i never said untouched....last time I checked.

My reply you quoted was in response to him saying he could build a solid 9 second car with 8445 heads. My point was you cannot without putting a bunch of money in the heads. I initially didnt think you would have people relocating valves, modifiying for better springs, etc in a 11 second class when that kind of money could get you nice aluminums. Guess I was wrong. I underatand you cant tech that so porting vs non porting cannot be enforced.

I still dont see why you cant just tech the too 3 or 4 or whatever you want during qualifying. Or just tech anybody running 120 mph or faster during qualifying and they must know if they exceed 120mph during elims they will get teched

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696

Active Member
Jun 11, 2009
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Teching just the top 3 could change the ladder, if any of the top 3 are illegal what then? Rerun the ladder? If you tech during qualifying what keeps someone from sandbagging, then running it all out in eliminations? You would have to tech everyone when all the other classes do it. The turbo may be the easiest limiter, with what's been thrown around. A 58'ish or so turbo and open up the rest. There are already (3) 9 sec classes, do we need a 4th? You already mentioned your car is set up for TAI or THS it sounds like. Might as well start there.
 

Thumper

Active Member
May 25, 2001
599
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28
Kentucky
Also keep in mind that the Gsca does not allow a slower class to have more than the next faster class. Therefore we cannot allow anything more than THS did.
 

achalmersman

Active Member
May 28, 2012
993
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Delaware
Teching just the top 3 could change the ladder, if any of the top 3 are illegal what then? Rerun the ladder? If you tech during qualifying what keeps someone from sandbagging, then running it all out in eliminations? You would have to tech everyone when all the other classes do it. The turbo may be the easiest limiter, with what's been thrown around. A 58'ish or so turbo and open up the rest. There are already (3) 9 sec classes, do we need a 4th? You already mentioned your car is set up for TAI or THS it sounds like. Might as well start there.
Im no longer worried about running this class with my car. It may be fun for my dad to participate in with his car but it wont be this coming year im confident. I was just trying to help with the inconvenience of teching every car. As far as sandbagging i figured somebody could figure out a way to eliminate that. I guess just set a turbo rule and tech every car. Like Bison said I guess if your worried about scratching a CAI dont race. Just seems like a waste of time teching a car thats trapping 110-115. But whatever from the sounds like it the Buick racers must be a bunch of cheaters lol

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