TE45a vs.

[qwks6]

So is anybody putting the te45a up against a new wheel bb unit at the dyno-challenge? May answer questions. All I see here is people who've had a turbo for years arguing against a turbo that doesn't have numbers from the track yet. You won't know how the new technology will compair until it's had someone put it on a proven combo and do some serious tuning. Until then you can always take this challenge and get a great deal on a turbo. If you don't like it you could make money by selling it!


http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/20...on-turbo-tb-com-nationals-dyno-challenge.html

 

[TurboTnZ06]

I would have liked to get on that dyno test deal, but I won't get to the Nationals until Thursday.

 

[Cme2fly]

So is anybody putting the te45a up against a new wheel bb unit at the dyno-challenge? May answer questions. All I see here is people who've had a turbo for years arguing against a turbo that doesn't have numbers from the track yet. You won't know how the new technology will compair until it's had someone put it on a proven combo and do some serious tuning. Until then you can always take this challenge and get a great deal on a turbo. If you don't like it you could make money by selling it!


http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/20...on-turbo-tb-com-nationals-dyno-challenge.html

Awesome deal that Precision has going on 75% OFF..WOW but...

Dyno numbers mean nothing...track numbers=WIN..:smile:

 

[2QUICK2B6]

TE45a has been out how many yrs and how many people have them ? The billet turbo's are new and it takes a minute to get everything out of a combo.

 

[Slow91z]

TE45a has been out how many yrs and how many people have them ? The billet turbo's are new and it takes a minute to get everything out of a combo.

Well no kidding, but until someone does get everything out of a new Billet turbo we will not know if it's better or not...Or how much better whichever you want to say.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

There are people testing/tracking/dynoing and getting everything out of the Billet Turbos, 99% of them don't own Grand Nationals. Your about a year off if you're looking for Dyno and Track info, the Import World has already done these types of showdowns and proven that they hammer the cast wheels.

Finally there will be a solid dyno session for the GN crowd but it's odd that it's the turbo manufacturer and a shop lending the Dyno unlike the Import World where the tuner shops do the showdowns to show customers it's not just hype.

At least they're doing it but I'm not so sure everyone in this crowd will appreciate it, which is probably why this is the 1st in about 26 years of GN history.

 

[bison]

proven that they hammer the cast wheels.

I know of one test where the billet wheel didnt hammer the cast wheel on a high hp heads up racers combo. It was worth about 3hp. The 3 hp could have been the fact that the billet one had an HPQ ex wheel and the other had an old GTQ or just a difference in the engine temp. Less than a half % difference is not hammering imo. That was only one instance but a good one since the small turbo is the limiting factor on that particular combo. I still run cast wheels and see about 12* max over ambient with my IAT mounted in the plenum and data logged. I run an old as hell Precision front mount too. I will soon try out a billet wheel of same or larger diameter and see if it drops my charge air temp. If it does not it will not be helping out much. Ill also data log ex pressure to show the difference in ex trim. Getting the ex pressure down does more for power than anything ive seen. Id really love to see a 70 cast HPQ turbine vs a 70 billet HPQ turbine both with the same ex housing and an electronic boost controller for very accurate control. That would be an excellent comparison to see where the billet wheel starts to show an advantage. On these small v6 engines id expect that the bottom end would fail before the billet wheel got to a boost level where it could really shine.

 

[bison]

Well no kidding, but until someone does get everything out of a new Billet turbo we will not know if it's better or not...Or how much better whichever you want to say.

I doubt they will be able to get everything on a stock block combo. It will take very high boost to run it out of steam. I dont think anyone running a 3 bolt has even come close to maximizing the compressor side. Ex pressure chokes it out before the compressor has a chance to shine.

 

[RUQWKNF]

Id really love to see a 70 cast HPQ turbine vs a 70 billet HPQ turbine both with the same ex housing and an electronic boost controller for very accurate control. That would be an excellent comparison to see where the billet wheel starts to show an advantage.

For the record, that test will be happening this coming Monday. However, there is one part of what you said, that does not exist in our turbo line up. That being a billet 70 compressor wheel. We've never produced a Billet 70mm compressor wheel. Only the current Billet 71mm CEA compressor wheel and the older 1st Gen BW 71mm compressor wheel.

Whether the test results are good or not so good, the Turbo Buick world will know for certain very soon. Like was previously said, this is a test that has never been done in the Turbo Buick community, but is being done constantly in the Import and Domestic communities. I too would've loved to have seen a TE-45 or TE-45a turbo tested up against one of our Billet 6765 turbos. Just wasn't in the cards this time. One thing's for sure though, it's going to be an awesome event next week.
See everyone there.

Patrick

 

[Blazer406]

IMHO.... too many variables to compare one to the other unless you swap them same day..... same conditions.... equally good tuneup.....

IMHO.... the newer wheel will win hands down.

Reality is..... most posing that question will never really "push" a turbo like Bison has........ and consequently won't extract everything the turbo has to offer......... so does it really matter?

If I was going to compare the 45A to something......I would compare it close to a newer billet 62....... which should make similar power to the 45A.... maybe a little more...... and with considerably less stall if you opt for the DBB center section. The 67mm (billet) while being only 1mm bigger...... has more potential..... and should be considered as a serious 9 sec capable turbo IMHO.

At the end of the day.....if mid 10's is the goal...... an old school 45A will get it done without breaking the bank.

You really just have to pick a goal.... and a budget...... and base your decision heavily on those two main factors.

 

[bison]

For the record, that test will be happening this coming Monday. However, there is one part of what you said, that does not exist in our turbo line up. That being a billet 70 compressor wheel. We've never produced a Billet 70mm compressor wheel. Only the current Billet 71mm CEA compressor wheel and the older 1st Gen BW 71mm compressor wheel.

Whether the test results are good or not so good, the Turbo Buick world will know for certain very soon. Like was previously said, this is a test that has never been done in the Turbo Buick community, but is being done constantly in the Import and Domestic communities. I too would've loved to have seen a TE-45 or TE-45a turbo tested up against one of our Billet 6765 turbos. Just wasn't in the cards this time. One thing's for sure though, it's going to be an awesome event next week.
See everyone there.

Patrick

How about a 67 HPQ cast vs a 67HPQ billet? I forgot there is no 70mm billet so its not a possible test. A 6765 vs a Te45a is a no brainer unless the 45 is equipped with a 65 trim ex wheel also. How about a 6765 cast comp vs a 6765 billet comp on the same engine with an AMS or similar controller (for boost control accuracy) that is working the turbo fairly hard over 25psi with heads and a valvetrain that will make power over 6000rpm? That will tell the tale better than anything imo. Im still convinced the ex side is where the most gain is based on the ex pressures ive seen.

 

[RUQWKNF]

How about a 6765 cast comp vs a 6765 billet comp on the same engine with an AMS or similar controller (for boost control accuracy) that is working the turbo fairly hard over 25psi with heads and a valvetrain that will make power over 6000rpm?

And that is another one that made it into the game. Cast 6765 vs Billet 6765 on a purpose built street car that anyone can duplicate.

I agree with you on freeing up the back pressure by stepping up exhaust wheel and turbine housing design. Our combinations are severely hampered by the 3-bolt design. That is why we are continually refining our compressor wheel and turbine wheel technology, as well as the air cooled, hybrid ceramic dual ball bearing cartridge.
I can't wait to get there for this event.

Patrick

 

[coach]

I hope you guys realize something. If they did not change the angle of the blades, or pitch, or something, the only difference in a cast wheel vs. a billet wheel is one is made of compressed powder and the other from a solid piece of material. Other than that , if they did not make a design change, the outcome is going to be the same. The main reason for the change is the technology of the machines that can now make the wheels. Before there was no way to manufacture the wheels by cutting them. Now with 5 axis CNC machining centers, they can be made from one piece and polished to balance. It is quicker than casting. The term "Billet" is used like it is space age material, NOT. It simply means, MADE OUT OF A SOLID PIECE. Could be billet, plastic, steel, aluminum, ceramic, wood...etc. Dont be fooled by sales pitchs using CNC and BILLET. They are nothing special.

Coach

 

[bison]

I hope you guys realize something. If they did not change the angle of the blades, or pitch, or something, the only difference in a cast wheel vs. a billet wheel is one is made of compressed powder and the other from a solid piece of material. Other than that , if they did not make a design change, the outcome is going to be the same. The main reason for the change is the technology of the machines that can now make the wheels. Before there was no way to manufacture the wheels by cutting them. Now with 5 axis CNC machining centers, they can be made from one piece and polished to balance. It is quicker than casting. The term "Billet" is used like it is space age material, NOT. It simply means, MADE OUT OF A SOLID PIECE. Could be billet, plastic, steel, aluminum, ceramic, wood...etc. Dont be fooled by sales pitchs using CNC and BILLET. They are nothing special.

Coach

The wheels are different technology. Hopefully they will also get inlet air temp readings on both which will give some useful data. Billet wheels are not new either. They were primarily used in the past for niche applications where it wasnt cost effective to cast them.

 

[coach]

The wheels are different technology. Hopefully they will also get inlet air temp readings on both which will give some useful data. Billet wheels are not new either. They were primarily used in the past for niche applications where it wasnt cost effective to cast them.

Thank you. That makes a difference. My point was simply the use of the "pitch words" CNC and Billet. I see the term billet used on every item in a SUMMIT catalog and some are cast items that are just machined. They can make an extra buck off the term alone because people do not know what it means. Thanks Bison.

Coach

 

[qwks6]

Billet is stronger than casting, although technology for the casting has left traditional wheels almost void free. Not only would the wheel be stronger, but also lighter meaning less rotating mass. It will tolerate higher tip speeds. In one post I read Cal said he saw less back pressure at same boost on one test.

Some claim they are nothing special, but in the import world they have blown away the competition. I believe in the right hands, not mine , they will prove to be another positive advance in turbo technology. As someone who is a turbo enthusiast, I do think it's a big deal. Look how far the turbo has come since '86.

I really believe we'll see turbo's in the next few years that will have multiple sequential compressor wheels and variable geometry technology in gas cars. Who knows, maybe something we haven't even thought of yet. But it's a good thing to see manufactures are using processes that will make turbos more efficient and stronger.

 

[billsgn]

Slightly off topic, but whats a TE45a worth these days? Are they even still available?

Im just an old fart that dont understand the new stuff. :wink:

 

[bison]

Thank you. That makes a difference. My point was simply the use of the "pitch words" CNC and Billet. I see the term billet used on every item in a SUMMIT catalog and some are cast items that are just machined. They can make an extra buck off the term alone because people do not know what it means. Thanks Bison.

Coach

Like my $45k billet tall deck v6 block that will debut in a couple years:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[RUQWKNF]

I hope you guys realize something. If they did not change the angle of the blades, or pitch, or something, the only difference in a cast wheel vs. a billet wheel is one is made of compressed powder and the other from a solid piece of material. Other than that , if they did not make a design change, the outcome is going to be the same. The main reason for the change is the technology of the machines that can now make the wheels. Before there was no way to manufacture the wheels by cutting them. Now with 5 axis CNC machining centers, they can be made from one piece and polished to balance. It is quicker than casting. The term "Billet" is used like it is space age material, NOT. It simply means, MADE OUT OF A SOLID PIECE. Could be billet, plastic, steel, aluminum, ceramic, wood...etc. Dont be fooled by sales pitchs using CNC and BILLET. They are nothing special.

Coach

It's funny you bring this up, as it's something that we are constantly battling on a daily basis with our new wheel technology. When it comes to cast vs billet material, you are absolutely correct, not much performance difference at all if the blades and the design are identical. However, this is not the case with our new CEA technology compressor wheels. CEA = Competition Engineered Aerodynamics.

Our head engineer Dan Barlog, has spent numerous hours upon hours designing these new wheels. Utilizing the latest CFD computational fluid dynamic software with each new wheel design. Everything you can think of to make these wheels better has been done, blade lengths, pitch, angles, everything, including boundary layer and direction of flow technology has been put into the designs.

Maybe this picture can better illustrate what I'm talking about.


Billet 67mm CEA compressor wheel.

One other thing, we have always brought the best technology to the table with our turbo designs. With regards to these new compressor wheels, we wouldn't have created a new turbo if it had not shown significant gains over it's cast compressor wheel cousin. We have seen very nice gains of anywhere from 25hp upwards of 100hp. This has been proven throughout the country with these new wheels on everything from 1.6L Honda motors to 600+ CI twin turbo motors.

Even our tractor pulling turbos have been setting records and turning that world upside down since we got into that market. We have been battling this billet vs cast debate for awhile now, and thankfully, with the cnc machine technology that's available to us, we can now pull out all the stops with our designs and bring the very best to the table.
Hope this helps and sorry I get so long winded sometimes.

Patrick

 

[coach]

It's funny you bring this up, as it's something that we are constantly battling on a daily basis with our new wheel technology. When it comes to cast vs billet material, you are absolutely correct, not much performance difference at all if the blades and the design are identical. However, this is not the case with our new CEA technology compressor wheels. CEA = Competition Engineered Aerodynamics.

Our head engineer Dan Barlog, has spent numerous hours upon hours designing these new wheels. Utilizing the latest CFD computational fluid dynamic software with each new wheel design. Everything you can think of to make these wheels better has been done, blade lengths, pitch, angles, everything, including boundary layer and direction of flow technology has been put into the designs.

Maybe this picture can better illustrate what I'm talking about.


Billet 67mm CEA compressor wheel.

One other thing, we have always brought the best technology to the table with our turbo designs. With regards to these new compressor wheels, we wouldn't have created a new turbo if it had not shown significant gains over it's cast compressor wheel cousin. We have seen very nice gains of anywhere from 25hp upwards of 100hp. This has been proven throughout the country with these new wheels on everything from 1.6L Honda motors to 600+ CI twin turbo motors.

Even our tractor pulling turbos have been setting records and turning that world upside down since we got into that market. We have been battling this billet vs cast debate for awhile now, and thankfully, with the cnc machine technology that's available to us, we can now pull out all the stops with our designs and bring the very best to the table.
Hope this helps and sorry I get so long winded sometimes.

Patrick

Thanks Pat,
You can tell it is billet from the cutter marks on it. Each line on each fin is a step over from a ball or bull nose cutter. I have been a tooling engineer and a journeyman toolmaker for 18 years. I understand to manufacturing concept of it. I was just informing the guys who are unaware of the difference. I have talked to some people who think that billet items come from outer space, while cast or other types are dinosaur material. Even you will agree that cutting these wheels was not cost effective a few years ago. 5 axis mills and the 3D software advancements have really changed that. Thanks for your information.


In keeping with the thread, how much difference on the street would you notice with a .8 housing vs. the .6 on a 45a?

Coach