TH400 build-pictures

[turbobitt]

It states the yoke is the same yoke as PN U1664 except it is case hardened for roller bearing use.

What makes you think it's not "just a forged yoke that was hardened"?

1. Because I own one of each(Stock and this one)
2. I am familiar with machining and manufacuring practices.
3. Stock yokes are forged and have a visible forging line, this doesn not.
4. Made from chromemoly and has all surfaces machined

 

[jakeshoe]

You own a "stock" yoke and the hardened Strange piece or you own both of the Strange pieces?

Stock isn't the same, and the machining quality will be different.
Not all forgings have a parting line, it may be machined off, and you make the statement as if there is something wrong with it being forged and then hardened.

Most of the builders who frequent this site are familiar with machining and manufacturing techniques in one form or another....myself being one of them.

 

[turbobitt]

You own a "stock" yoke and the hardened Strange piece or you own both of the Strange pieces?

Stock isn't the same, and the machining quality will be different.
Not all forgings have a parting line, it may be machined off, and you make the statement as if there is something wrong with it being forged and then hardened.

Most of the builders who frequent this site are familiar with machining and manufacturing techniques in one form or another....myself being one of them.

BTW, Never made a statement that there was something wrong with a forged yoke. Mater of fact, I've been pretty fast with a stock yoke. My comments were simply stating that it was not a stock style yoke that was carberized. Please read my post more carefully and don't assume anything..

 

[jakeshoe]

Many of the Strange yokes are simply Spicer parts. These are forged pieces, and of high quality.
The 1664 looks like it may be a billet piece. I'm assuming so looking at it and by the material.

Anyway,
the Spicer yokes often don't have a parting line. I have a Nascar 400 style yoke in a 4L80E in the shop of this type. If I remember I'll take a pic of it tomorrow.

Not trying to sharpshoot you just wondering why the statement.

 

[87buickracer]

th400 build

Got all modifications complete.Here is a list of what I did.
1)install th350 pump bearing and shim on output shaft.
2)alto clutches/kolene steels throughout.
3)alto power pack in intermediate w/snap ring
4)Dual feed direct drum
5)teflon seals
6)drill direct drum .060"
7)2-3 accumulator mod
8)restrict converter feed
9)modify valve body plate for firmer 2nd gear shift
10)deep trans pan
11)34 element sprag
12)hi psi regulator spring and shim
13)new bands,kevlar
14)synthetic fluid will be used
15)fresh coat of paint
16)running 2 check balls only
only thing left is to install valvebody,fiter,gasket/pan and a few other things.
with the mods done tranny will surely hit good in 2nd gear.now time for some new drag radials.:biggrin:

 

[jakeshoe]

I'm going to butt in...

I prefer to keep 5 checkballs. I'm not a fan of the B&M "two checkball and huge holes" method.

Just my opinion, and maybe other builders will chime in, but I don't like Kevlar materials.
On a TH400 the int band is only used for engine braking in manual 2nd, it doesn't do much really. If you feel you need "more" band here, use a wider 4L80e band and the associated longer apply pin parts. I do this on rockcrawler setups that manually shift but otherwise I use a stock int. band.

I use new Delco bands for the low band, they work good for 40+ yrs and are often re-usable, so $25 for a new band works for me. I usually machine the OD of the reaction carrier.

I like the Alto Red frictions in most applications. Work great and I use them in the 200 directs, 350 intermediates and directs, but on the TH400's I use the Hi Energy frictions from the later 4L80s in the directs and on my higher HP units in the intermediates to get a 4 count setup.

I don't care for the Kolene steels. My opinion is that you have a paper based friction material. No matter what you do it is the weaker element. Regular steel will take more heat than any friction material can survive. Kolenese shed their coating into the frictions in my experience if you don't scotchbrite them. So they take more prep time and cost more. Lose/Lose situation when a stock steel works great.

These are just my opinions, but you might save some money on your next build using Hi-Energy frictions and stock steels. Try it out.

Don't make it hit 2nd too hard, or it'll still kill the sprag. I drill the 2nd feed hole to .125" and leave the checkballs in place. Very firm shifts, but not unpleasant at part throttle.
IMO they shouldn't shift HARD at PT anyway. Crisp is all you're after.

Let us know how it works for you.

 

[Alky V6]

I'm going to butt in...

I prefer to keep 5 checkballs. I'm not a fan of the B&M "two checkball and huge holes" method.

Just my opinion, and maybe other builders will chime in, but I don't like Kevlar materials.
On a TH400 the int band is only used for engine braking in manual 2nd, it doesn't do much really. If you feel you need "more" band here, use a wider 4L80e band and the associated longer apply pin parts. I do this on rockcrawler setups that manually shift but otherwise I use a stock int. band.

I use new Delco bands for the low band, they work good for 40+ yrs and are often re-usable, so $25 for a new band works for me. I usually machine the OD of the reaction carrier.

I like the Alto Red frictions in most applications. Work great and I use them in the 200 directs, 350 intermediates and directs, but on the TH400's I use the Hi Energy frictions from the later 4L80s in the directs and on my higher HP units in the intermediates to get a 4 count setup.

I don't care for the Kolene steels. My opinion is that you have a paper based friction material. No matter what you do it is the weaker element. Regular steel will take more heat than any friction material can survive. Kolenese shed their coating into the frictions in my experience if you don't scotchbrite them. So they take more prep time and cost more. Lose/Lose situation when a stock steel works great.

These are just my opinions, but you might save some money on your next build using Hi-Energy frictions and stock steels. Try it out.

Don't make it hit 2nd too hard, or it'll still kill the sprag. I drill the 2nd feed hole to .125" and leave the checkballs in place. Very firm shifts, but not unpleasant at part throttle.
IMO they shouldn't shift HARD at PT anyway. Crisp is all you're after.

Let us know how it works for you.

Good stuff Jake. I agree with everything but the machining of the reaction carrier. What has been your experience with the blue raybestos frictions?

 

[jakeshoe]

Don,
Why don't you agree with machining the reaction carrier?

So many are rough. I don't machine all of them but machine as necessary, and only make a light cut. The goal isn't to make it perfectly smooth but usually they come out nice.


Don,
I haven't found a need for the Blues yet. I've ran the Alto reds and the stock HE's in TH400's to over 900 FWHP and they look like new after a season or two usually.

I can't justify the expense when what I'm doing works.
I do the dual feed and use a stock PR spring to ~600 HP. Of course all the other normal stuff. 34 element, 350 bearing, teflon or newer 4L80 rings, etc.

When they get into the 600+ range or plans to grow, I use the 4 clutch intermediate but still the stock PR.

Over 750'ish I try to talk customer into a SuperDrum with the 36 element sprag. I use a heavier PR spring.

The Th400 just doesn't seem to need anything fancy. Th350 is the same way. Plenty of friction area, apply area, clutch over clutch apply...
You know all of this.

I've seen the blue's in some of the monster truck transmissions in the past, but also seen STOCK frictions in them too, old tan BW's....
10,500 lbs, 1500 HP.

 

[Alky V6]

It's not that I disagree about the cutting of the reaction carrier, it's just that if the surface is grooved by the band, you know what I mean, it would seem to take at least a .007 to .010", or more, cut to clean it up. To me that's taking too much from the diameter. Then the compensating with the rear band adjustment. I'd rather just replace the part.

I asked about the blues because I recently installed a set in mine. By the way, I'm with you on everything you say about the frictions. Recently I've discovered that if I get out of shape on the track and I'm forced to short shift 3rd, it's a guarantee the direct frictions will be overdone toast. It's amazing how quickly the reds will wear thin from one mishap. I'm hoping the blues will take the abuse of a short shift better, but I'm not holding my breath. Although, I'm sure the steels won't. They'll fish eye, I'm sure. I'm just experimenting. Wondered if you had any info on the blues, that's all. The real cure would be to just avoid short shifting 3rd, but on the track, sometimes in the heat of battle, the direct pack is low on the priority list. I agree with you on the kolenes. They fish eye just as easily as regular steels. I switched to regular steels.

 

[jakeshoe]

I know they've recently updated the Blues material wise.
Bruce uses them IIRC.

I started using the HE frictions because GM came out with them to help with the 3-4 clutch pack in the 4L60s. I'm sure they spent some time developing them, and they work well. The builders who have been doing the trial and error method on these units with the limited friction and apply area have had good success using the HE's there. If they'll work in that application and live better than the Red's and as well as or better than the Z-Pak, they have to be a decent material.

I talk to a few noted builders frequently and many say the reds simply don't hold up in the 3-4 of the 700/4L60. They definitely don't hold up using th Alto Power pack with it's thin steels, but don't seem to work as well even with thick steels, as the HE's.

That is interesting to me, because they seem to work great in the directs of as 200-4R, Th350, and in the past the TH400 for me.
I had a TH350 several years ago...
Tightening the last pump bolt and it twisted off. Weak fatigued bolt, late night thrash, twisted off even with the case.
I pulled the pump to look at the bolt, re-inserted it to use the pump as a guide to drill the bolt, and in and out a couple of times more, plus final assembly.
It had iron sealing rings on it.
After 9 months of operation one of the iron sealing rings broke. I am certain from a fracture of multiple pump R&Rs.
The trans was running Reds throughout.
Forward clutches lost pressure on the way home from the track according to my friend, he baby'd the car home from stoplight to stoplight and it made it.
He brought the trans to me, we ripped into it, and of course had to replace the pump, forward drum due to scoring from the failed iron ring, and I installed new frictions in the FWDs, but the steels were COOKED. The Reds were actually in pretty decent shape. They had obviously seen some heat, and were "browned" but they were not black, or seperating, etc. They actually looked really intact and almost re-usable. Normally with the way the steels looked, the friction lining would have been seperated from the metal backing or completely gone and in the pan.

That's my experience with the Reds and it was convincing enough that I believe it to be a good material.
I have a 200-4R in the shop from a GN, high 10 second car IIRC, I'm warrantying it for an odd issue with fwd drum eating up the center support. Looks like a lack of lube flow at that location only. CS and bushings are toasted. Fwd drum sealing rings torn, clutches failed.
All the rest of the frictions look NEW. Directs looked great, band looks like I installed it yesterday, etc. Not too bad for a "weak" transmission

 

[Alky V6]

Since I have a particular situation, and that would be short shifting 3rd, that I know will wipe out a direct clutch, I thought it would be a good test environment for the blue frictions, or any other friction material for that matter. I've tried the blues in the past and I have to say they didn't impress me. But, now that I have this perfect test situation, I couldn't resist to use it for checking the durability of different high performance materials. It's almost a perfect control test. The next time I run into a short shift instance, I'll pull the trans and check the pack out for comparison. If I don't run into a short shift situation, I'll pull the trans after 20 passes to see how the packs doing under normal operation. Good opportunity to learn something more concrete about these different materials.

 

[turbobitt]

Since I have a particular situation, and that would be short shifting 3rd, that I know will wipe out a direct clutch, I thought it would be a good test environment for the blue frictions, or any other friction material for that matter. I've tried the blues in the past and I have to say they didn't impress me. But, now that I have this perfect test situation, I couldn't resist to use it for checking the durability of different high performance materials. It's almost a perfect control test. The next time I run into a short shift instance, I'll pull the trans and check the pack out for comparison. If I don't run into a short shift situation, I'll pull the trans after 20 passes to see how the packs doing under normal operation. Good opportunity to learn something more concrete about these different materials.

Don,
I am very intersested in you results with the blues. I would bet that they will live in your situation. They are extreamly tough and can take a lot of heat and slipping. The problem that I saw with these is that they don't seem to shift well, probably becasue they can't displace oil or too hard.
I had these in my intermediate clutch once and had an problem with my center support that made the clutchpack engage slowly. The clutches slipped but eventually locked up. The clutches were discolored a little but do wear and the steels were hot fo sure with black streaks and all the other signs. I think any other clutch would have been stripped to the metal.
I was able to make several passes with the car this way( and in the 9's) and removed the transmission for repair and evaluation.
I would never question the fact that the blues may be the most duable clutch but I wonder if anybody else has any feedback on shift quality vs. the reds or other.

 

[chris718]

The blue clutch is junk in the th400 .takes too long to shift and quickly glazes,but doesnt burn and creates llllllooooonnnnnngggg drawn out shifts.id rather use stock clutches in comparison to the using the blue plates in the hi drum of a th400.the key to the directs living beyond the usual is feeding thru the reverse passage and eliminating the hi passage completely.

.

 

[jakeshoe]

I'm interested in seeing how the blue's work for you also Don. I do recall Chris stating they seemed to take noticeably longer to totally engage in some of his 200 testing too.

As I recall, the Blues were originally developed for the stock class guys who were experimenting with running fairly low line pressures to lessen the pumping HP losses. I remember reading that somewhere, possibly here on TB.com.

 

[Alky V6]

I've got 8 runs on the trans now with the blues in the direct. Consistent 6.0s (1/8 mile). The impression so far on the shift quality is no difference compared to the reds. I have to admit that I haven't been paying particular attention to the 2-3 shift quality, but if there was a large change, I think I would have noticed it. The fluid smells fine at this point. If the blues are known for cushioning the shift a little, I can certainly live with that. My setup shifts so hard that I get chirps on the 1-2 and 2-3 shift on a sticky track and slicks, due to a relatively low stall T/C I'm using. Can't be too good on hard parts. I've been progressively adding return springs to the intermediate piston to curb the chirping on the 1-2 shift. I haven't been doing anything to the direct yet to soften it. Maybe the plates will take care of that problem for me.

I'm doing a turbo upgrade right now, so the car is down. I may pull the trans just to check on the plates.

Here's a link to a thread that has a posting of my latest datalogging. You can study the rate of rpm drop of the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. They appear to me to be similar. The intermediate pack is using HE frictions out of the 4T80E.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/al...-advancement-fuel-delivery-6.html#post1937810

 

[jakeshoe]

Are you using an aluminum or iron direct drum with that 36 element sprag

 

[Alky V6]

Are you using an aluminum or iron direct drum with that 36 element sprag

Mines iron. I didn't know aluminum was available with the 4T80E sprag. Do you have any experience with the aluminum drum with the big sprag?

 

[jakeshoe]

Mines iron. I didn't know aluminum was available with the 4T80E sprag. Do you have any experience with the aluminum drum with the big sprag?

There are a couple of companies making the aluminum drums with the 36 element setup.

I have all the stuff at the machine shop to prototype my own alum drums. I plan to go ahead and use the bigger sprag, although with an aluminum drum it probably isn't necessary.
Machine shop ownership has changed so I'm having to re-explain the whole deal to the new guys.
I think I can build them for a decent price and sell them for less than what other companies are selling the alum drum with 34 element setup.
It's still a little ways out.

 

[jakeshoe]

Don,
I just cleaned out my PMs go ahead and try again

 

[Alky V6]

Jake. You need to clear some PM space.

LOL