Tile setting and use of cement backer board??

[2QUIK6]

I need some advice from any tile setters here. I've laid tile in a number of places on concrete floors at my house.
But now I'm going to be tiling a bar counter top that currently has a lamenant top.
My questions are:
1) Should I just peel off the lamenant top and mortar the tile right to the wood under it or do I need to install the cement backer board? I suspect the wood is just partical board.

2) If installing the cement backer board is recommended, do I just screw it to the existing counter top lamenant, or are you supposed to mortar it/glue it to the surface?

I figure I should use the backer board in case any liquid makes it way thru a crack in the grout and makes it to the wood..that would cause expansion and start poping tiles off?

I've never used the backer board before so I'm not sure how to apply it, and the bar top is curved, was planing to tile the edges too so that may be tricky to apply the cement board there too.
Here's the top to tile.

 

[TexasT]

Let me first start off by stating I am not a pro but a DIY guy.

I have used backer board on several occasions as well as adhering it directly to the concrete in several slab on grade homes. When I used the backer board on a walking surface on one occasion I used screws and the other I shot it down with ring shank nails. I think the idea is to eliminate or at least reduce the flex of the substrate to try to eliminate cracks in the tile.

I've also used backer board when tiling walls in a shower. I threw in some pix. Again I am a DIY guy not a pro.

 

[Dwayne]

.......another DIY'er here and the son of a cabinet maker......you prolly would be better off screwing it to the countertop....reason being, the formica that is on the top now should be glued down with a strong epoxy and it may be hell to peel off..........unless you've got a kid or wife that you're pissed at; then hand them a putty knife and make them peel it off ........good luck, and post some pics of progress and/or finished top.

 

[Dwayne]

I just googled " laying tile over formica".....ton of hits........here is one that is a little more detailed.....HTH The Tile Shop: Do-It-Yourself- How To Install a Backsplash

 

[2QUIK6]

The tops are very rigid, they do not flex under weight, so I don't think I'll have an issue with cracking so much.
If you notice in the pic, there's several vertical support centers holding up the top portion, I may just get the lamenant off those and tile right to the wood, or maybe even tile on the lamenant, hoping it doesn't start peeling off like other flat spots have. There are 5 supports counting the ends.

I'll probably start after new years and will post pics here, its going to be one colorful top..using 6 bright colors of tile and will be breaking them up with a hammer and putting all the broken parts randomly on the top along with some colored rocks and various things.

So just screw the backer board on? Or does it require a thin set mortar smeared on the mating surface?

 

[GNcollectables]

Forget the backerboard, forget the mortar...

peel off the formica, then use adhesive tile glue. spread it on with a small trowel (or use a putty knife & apply it in swirl patterns) directly onto the wood. Twist (left-right motion as you push them down) the tiles in place (helps them bond to the glue). use a scrap piece of wood, pencil, etc., to scrape out any excess glue from the grout lines.

For your purpose, you don't want too much weight put on the top & avoiding mortar & backerboard solves this.

I lay tile professionally, & we've used this method on regular (sink) countertops. It's faster, less messy & as far as flexibility goes, the glue is actually a bit more flexible than mortar, but just as strong for holding the tiles in place.

Be sure to "seal" the grout! Most people don't do this & sealing the grout really does keep the grout clean & if you ever spill any liquids on the countertop, the sealer keeps the moisture from soaking in.

If you need further help, feel free to pm me.

 

[2QUIK6]

Forget the backerboard, forget the mortar...

peel off the formica, then use adhesive tile glue.

I had not heard of this. Is this adhesive glue readily available at Lowe's or Home Depot?
This sounds like a good idea, but what if water gets into any cracks and gets to the partical board underneath, or does the glue act as a barrier in this case?
If so, and I can get the formica off this might be the easiest to do. This works with thousands of tiny pieces since I'm not using regular tiles, but the thinner colored tiles and all broken up pieces at that?

Thanks for the link above bigdaddy.

 

[The Blob]

I'll probably start after new years and will post pics here, its going to be one colorful top..using 6 bright colors of tile and will be breaking them up with a hammer and putting all the broken parts randomly on the top along with some colored rocks and various things.

I had a tile counter top... it seemed like the grout was always dirty and it was a bitch to clean.

I ended up ripping it out and going with granite. A little spendy, but way worth it.

 

[2QUIK6]

I had a tile counter top... it seemed like the grout was always dirty and it was a bitch to clean.

I ended up ripping it out and going with granite. A little spendy, but way worth it.

Yeah, I thought about that, but this is only on the bar area and planning to use charchol/black grout so hopefully it will not be too bad since food and such should be getting on there too much, only spilled drinks

 

[TR Custom Parts]

Ron Hazelton's HouseCalls - Tiling Over Vinyl Or you could try this!

 

[GNcollectables]

I had not heard of this. Is this adhesive glue readily available at Lowe's or Home Depot?
This sounds like a good idea, but what if water gets into any cracks and gets to the partical board underneath, or does the glue act as a barrier in this case?
If so, and I can get the formica off this might be the easiest to do. This works with thousands of tiny pieces since I'm not using regular tiles, but the thinner colored tiles and all broken up pieces at that?

yes, glue at home depot, etc., small tub for about $15.

as for the wetness, the glue (sort of) acts as a barrrier, but thats why you want to seal the grout! the sealer is like 10 bucks. put a thin first coat on the grout (suppose to only go on the grout, but with all those little pieces you may not be able to avoid getting on tiles - but try), then come back around 10 minutes later & apply a heavy (but not drenching) 2nd coat.

after another hour (or 2 or so), if it looks like the grout is dry (in other words, the sealer has soaked in) then apply a final third coat (medium). if its not dry & still looks very wet, you probably dont need a 3rd coat.

let all this dry for a complete day. (this all was assuming you are using "sanded" grout - if you're using non-sanded grout, you dont need to seal it. of course non-sanded grout is WAY messier to work with!)

small pieces will be ok, just work in small sections at a time so the glue doesnt dry. depending on how real small your tiles are, you may only want to work 1 foot sections at a time.

 

[2QUIK6]

That sounds like a good idea, thanks for the info. I was thinking if any small cracks got in the grout after sealing about the wetness part. I have about 50 sq/ft to tile and plan to break the tiles into about 1 inch squares, hopfully that stuff comes in something bigger than tubes though. I have bullnose to use on the edges. Not against using thin set mortar either if I have to as I have a mixer, sounds like the glue may be a little cleaner.

 

[GNcollectables]

"hopfully that stuff comes in something bigger than tubes though"

tubes? if you mean the glue, it comes in like a gallon bucket (TUB, not tube).


if you press/pack the grout into the spaces good/hard enough, you wont have ANY cracks in there in the future.

if you dont have the proper rubber trowel to insert the grout, you can use a putty knife if need be. keep packing the holes until you cant get anymore grout in there & you'll be fine.

and by sealing the grout, even if there were any future cracks, the sealer should prevent any liquids from creaping down past the grout onto the wood, since some of the sealer gets absorbed "into" the grout. (if that makes any sense!)

the glue IS cleaner, but remember its glue, so its very sticky! (wear old clothes to do the job; the glue doesnt like to come off of clothes!). quicker to use too, no mixing, no waiting to setup (like mortar), just scoop it out of the bucket & apply.

lastly, with sealing the grout, makes (now, & future) cleaning easier... "the blob" mentioned that his grout was always dirty & hard to clean.... thats probaby because it wasnt sealed (most pro. tilers dont seal the grout, thats usually left to the customer to do, and sometimes the contractor doesnt tell the customer that part, either!)

BTW, like my bumper sticker? :wink:

 

[2QUIK6]

Thanks GNcollectables, I will try that method if I can get the darn formica off since it is peeling off in places.
For some reason I read tube about instead of tub.

How easy does the glue come off on the tiles if I get on the surface of them?

Love the bumper sticker

 

[GNcollectables]

the glue will come off ok if you catch it before it dries, assuming you're using the glossy tiles (?) if not & they're porous, then try not to get the glue on them as it may soak into the tiles (and may discolor them, although this will not be readily apparent). if the glue does get on them, since you're doing a random pattern anyways, just pitch the piece with glue on it!

when you do the job, there really shouldnt be THAT much glue down on the board that it'll be a problem. of course, since they're tiny pieces that you're using... if you accidently drop them (upside-down) on the counter then oops.... probably just easier throwing the piece away then to try & clean off!

for getting the formica off, dig in with a razor knife (like stab into it), it won't matter if you cut to far into the wood since it will be getting covered anyways. put a lot of slices into it & you should be able to peel or pry them all up.

 

[2QUIK6]

yep, using the glassy slick tiles.
ok, last question I hope, how thick do you spread the glue and should I use the flat side of the trowel to spread or I do use the notched side? (assuming the tiny notches for small tile)

 

[GNcollectables]

use the notched side, 1/8" or 3/16" trowel would work good (small v-notched is even better, but square notched is ok too). if your trowel is bigger than that, just angle it close to the wood, a height of no bigger than 3/16" of glue, or else with your small pieces it will get real messy. You can use the flat side if its easier, but the advantage of the notches is that it keeps the level of the glue even across the entire surface.

a tip to make them all level: if you work in (say) a 12 x 12 area at a time, set all the pieces down in the glue, then take a 13 x 13 piece of wood & press down (firmly, but not too hard, you dont want the glue oozing everywhere) on the entire thing... that'll make sure its all flat & even.

 

[getchasum]

Forget the backerboard, forget the mortar...

peel off the formica, then use adhesive tile glue. spread it on with a small trowel (or use a putty knife & apply it in swirl patterns) directly onto the wood. Twist (left-right motion as you push them down) the tiles in place (helps them bond to the glue). use a scrap piece of wood, pencil, etc., to scrape out any excess glue from the grout lines.

For your purpose, you don't want too much weight put on the top & avoiding mortar & backerboard solves this.

I lay tile professionally, & we've used this method on regular (sink) countertops. It's faster, less messy & as far as flexibility goes, the glue is actually a bit more flexible than mortar, but just as strong for holding the tiles in place.

Be sure to "seal" the grout! Most people don't do this & sealing the grout really does keep the grout clean & if you ever spill any liquids on the countertop, the sealer keeps the moisture from soaking in.

If you need further help, feel free to pm me.

Wonder if this procedure would work on a plywood floor? I'm getting ready to do my kitchen over the holidays.

 

[GNcollectables]

Wonder if this procedure would work on a plywood floor? I'm getting ready to do my kitchen over the holidays.

you could, but normally floors get mortar because of the weight put on them (OUR weight!). You could get away without using cement board if you like, just glue down a roll of tar paper (roofing paper) to act as a moisture barrier. thats really not the preferred method for floors however. the cement board keeps the entire floor flat, and prevents future warpage, so keep that in mind as well.

I wouldn't recommend the glue method for a floor in a well travelled area like a kitchen. with the cost of cement board being about $100 for an average sized room (about $10 for a 3x5 board @ H.D.), is it really worth it to save a hundred bucks now, but have to redo the floor in a year or 2 when the house (and the floor) starts to settle (AKA cracking, tiles shifting)? piece of mind is worth $100, trust me.

when you do a large area, glue is actually more expensive to use than mortar. glue is actually just meant for applying tile that "looks nice" (showers, backsplashes) rather than functionality (like a floor).

.

 

[getchasum]

Thanks for the tips. This will be my 1st time doing tile, so I hope all goes well. The in-laws did their's so I sure I can do mine.:biggrin: