timing chain replacement and priming oil pump
- Thread starter timstips
- Start date
Welcome!
By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.
If I were you I wouldn't let that guy touch the car. You do have to prime it, or else its a very dry startup, and can damage the bearings. How does he figure it doesn't lose prime when you have to remove the pump to do it? He doesn't know these cars, get someone else asap.
timstips,
My guess is it would not be any worse than starting the car after an oil change, but...
Since the oil pump is an integral part of the timing chain cover, and stands to reason that you indirectly removed the pump AND disconnected the related oil cooler lines, great care would be needed to add oil to all the lines, pump, and filter prior to startup to displace as much air as possible. Many have posted steps on this board detailing how they pre-oiled their systems and worked around using a priming shaft.
Worst case would be starting the car and having the oil pump unable to build pressure and whatever bearing wear that involves. You could disconnect the orange wire behind the battery and crank it over until you see some PSI.
Personally, when I performed this job myself last year, I did not risk it. I made my own priming shaft by taking long flat-blade screwdriver, hacked off the handle, slipped a deep 9/16 socket over the end, and chucked it up in my electric drill motor. (The socket kept the flat blade from slipping off.)Even after adding oil to all the components during assy, I was surprised... It took longer than I thought it would to bring up the oil pressure.
Since you have the cam sensor removed already, what reasons do you have NOT performing this? It seems like a necessary step to me!
My guess is it would not be any worse than starting the car after an oil change, but...
Since the oil pump is an integral part of the timing chain cover, and stands to reason that you indirectly removed the pump AND disconnected the related oil cooler lines, great care would be needed to add oil to all the lines, pump, and filter prior to startup to displace as much air as possible. Many have posted steps on this board detailing how they pre-oiled their systems and worked around using a priming shaft.
Worst case would be starting the car and having the oil pump unable to build pressure and whatever bearing wear that involves. You could disconnect the orange wire behind the battery and crank it over until you see some PSI.
Personally, when I performed this job myself last year, I did not risk it. I made my own priming shaft by taking long flat-blade screwdriver, hacked off the handle, slipped a deep 9/16 socket over the end, and chucked it up in my electric drill motor. (The socket kept the flat blade from slipping off.)Even after adding oil to all the components during assy, I was surprised... It took longer than I thought it would to bring up the oil pressure.
Since you have the cam sensor removed already, what reasons do you have NOT performing this? It seems like a necessary step to me!
Zero Tolerance
Sitting in my Angry Chair
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2002
- Messages
- 467
Prime the pump. I lost my motor (rod bearings) after changing my timing chain, and not properly priming the motor.
If you got a boat load of cash, or are willing to risk it...then don't prime the system.
If you got a boat load of cash, or are willing to risk it...then don't prime the system.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2001
- Messages
- 2,205
Just like Zero Tolerance says, I too lost a motor after not properly priming it after a timing chain change. Especially don't use that vaseline or grease idea. Follow the instructions in gnttype.org. The boat load of cash part for me was: needed another crank, replaced rods, messed up my turbo plus a bunch of other stuff.
Thanks for the responses guys. A good friend of mine, R.B., recently had his timing chain replaced at a Buick dealership and now they are telling him he has a bad bearing. The mechanic told him that he DID NOT prime the oil pump when he changed the timing chain. Please send all the responses you can concerning priming the oil pump for R.B.'s defense. Thanks guys.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2001
- Messages
- 2,205
Maybe that GM tech should open up the service manual. Just a thought
.
.- Joined
- Jul 20, 2001
- Messages
- 2,205
When I get home from work, I look in my service manual. But according to Mitchell-on-Demand:
Note: Because oil pump may lose its prime when the front engine cover is removed, always remove the pump cover and pack petroleum jelly tightly around oil pump gears whenever front cover is removed.
Also, it notes in the front cover assembly:
Pack oil pump gears with petroleum jelly after removing cover.
It says it twice, in the same paragraph. Notice each sentence does not even give an option not to prime the pump, once the cover is removed.
I hope that GM tech isn't a board member, cuz he get my idiot vote.
Note: Because oil pump may lose its prime when the front engine cover is removed, always remove the pump cover and pack petroleum jelly tightly around oil pump gears whenever front cover is removed.
Also, it notes in the front cover assembly:
Pack oil pump gears with petroleum jelly after removing cover.
It says it twice, in the same paragraph. Notice each sentence does not even give an option not to prime the pump, once the cover is removed.
I hope that GM tech isn't a board member, cuz he get my idiot vote.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2001
- Messages
- 2,205
In short, no. But I don't use the petroleum jelly method, IMHO, that is how I think I lost my engine. I prime through the oil cooler lines, using a funnel to fill the oil pump cavity, through the oil cooler line. Once the oil pump cavity is filled, I use the distributor shaft from a small block chevy and insert it in place of the cam sensor. Then I turn the shaft back and forth by hand to get the pump to catch the oil. I then loop one of the cooler lines on the oil filter housing and use a drill to complete the priming process. Like I said before, go to gnttype.org and look at their priming procedure.
I just use a floor jack handle (the kind with the internal pin) taped to a "speed wrench" (like an old fashioned hand drill). Spin it and you will feel it pump oil. If you don't think it is, carefully loosen the turbo feed line to verify.
The cam sensor is out any way, so acccess to the pump shaft is there. No need to take the the oil pump apart. The residual oil in the pump and lines should keep it's prime.
ALWAYS remove the pan when doing the timing chain. This is more important than packing the oil pump.
The cam sensor is out any way, so acccess to the pump shaft is there. No need to take the the oil pump apart. The residual oil in the pump and lines should keep it's prime.
ALWAYS remove the pan when doing the timing chain. This is more important than packing the oil pump.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2001
- Messages
- 2,205
More good points. You can always count on UNGN to add additional good points.
OK guys, I talked to the mechanic today on the phone and he thinks it's a front main bearing. He hasn't dropped the pan yet so it's a guess right now. However he did say he didn't prime the pump and I asked him twice. Now I'm going to be there tomorrow when they drop the pan so what should I be looking for? If I end up having to pay for this what do you think it would cost? What do I need to know about this job that he may not know. Thanks for everybody's help. R.B.
tminer
Not quite normal
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
- Messages
- 761
The service manual says to pack with petroleum jelly whenever the pump, pump cover or timing chain cover is disturbed or severe engine damage may result. It is on pages 6a5-9 & 6a5-13.
I think that it was eluded to here, but never directly mentioned that failure to remove the oil pan can result in coolant contaminating the oil. Maybe coolant damaged bearings are easily recognized.
Tom
I think that it was eluded to here, but never directly mentioned that failure to remove the oil pan can result in coolant contaminating the oil. Maybe coolant damaged bearings are easily recognized.
Tom
R.B.
I know they SAID they removed the pan, but removing the pan isn't standard operating procedure for most shops (loosening the pan may be). My experience is that the guy that tells you they removed the pan isn't the guy with grease up to his elbows, if you know what I mean.
If a bearing went right after a timing chain, its their fault and they know it. If they didn't verify the car had oil pressure before starting it up it's definately their fault. I'd ask for it to be "made right" or a complete refund and take it to someone who can make it right.
Even the dumbest lawyer knows what "severe engine damage" means. The shop doesn't have a case.
I know they SAID they removed the pan, but removing the pan isn't standard operating procedure for most shops (loosening the pan may be). My experience is that the guy that tells you they removed the pan isn't the guy with grease up to his elbows, if you know what I mean.
If a bearing went right after a timing chain, its their fault and they know it. If they didn't verify the car had oil pressure before starting it up it's definately their fault. I'd ask for it to be "made right" or a complete refund and take it to someone who can make it right.
Even the dumbest lawyer knows what "severe engine damage" means. The shop doesn't have a case.
Three words:
Pocket tape recorder
It is legal in every state to record an open conversation in public. the recorders go for like 40 bucks. Stick it in your pocket and get the guy on tape saying that he did not prime it.
Then take a copy of it, copy of the pages in the service manual that state it should be primed, and print out these posts. Take it all to the service manger and be very nice and professional about it.
If you get all that you have a rock solid case against them. If the svc manager doesn't comply, go to the top guy at the dealership. If he doesn't do it contact a GM corporate office and plead your case with them. If no go there you will have to get an attorney.
You may be able to record your phone conversations as well. It will depend on your state's laws. Here in AZ it is legal as long as at least ONE party in the conversation knows it is being recorded.
I had to do something similar to Jiffy lube. I had my oil changed (provided my own mob 1 syn) on my IROC-Z. I was out of town and it was way overdue. I watched the guy the whole time-even went in the pit with him.
The filter came loose on my wife while she was going through the mountains. I am SO happy she has enough sense to watch gauges and pull over if something is wrong.
To make a long story short they tried to say I had a high pressure pump and yadda yadda... letters... yadda yadda... record...yadda yadda...proof yadda yadda... Jiffy lube buys me a NEW GM long block installed by the dealer... yadda
Good Luck,
Vic
Pocket tape recorder
It is legal in every state to record an open conversation in public. the recorders go for like 40 bucks. Stick it in your pocket and get the guy on tape saying that he did not prime it.
Then take a copy of it, copy of the pages in the service manual that state it should be primed, and print out these posts. Take it all to the service manger and be very nice and professional about it.
If you get all that you have a rock solid case against them. If the svc manager doesn't comply, go to the top guy at the dealership. If he doesn't do it contact a GM corporate office and plead your case with them. If no go there you will have to get an attorney.
You may be able to record your phone conversations as well. It will depend on your state's laws. Here in AZ it is legal as long as at least ONE party in the conversation knows it is being recorded.
I had to do something similar to Jiffy lube. I had my oil changed (provided my own mob 1 syn) on my IROC-Z. I was out of town and it was way overdue. I watched the guy the whole time-even went in the pit with him.
The filter came loose on my wife while she was going through the mountains. I am SO happy she has enough sense to watch gauges and pull over if something is wrong.
To make a long story short they tried to say I had a high pressure pump and yadda yadda... letters... yadda yadda... record...yadda yadda...proof yadda yadda... Jiffy lube buys me a NEW GM long block installed by the dealer... yadda
Good Luck,
Vic
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2001
- Messages
- 2,205
Sorry i didn't get back to you, but no work today (holiday).
Tell that technician (I don't even consider him/her that) to look in section 6A5-9 of the factory service manual and it will describe the petroleum jelly priming procedure and the fact that the oil pump may loose its' prime if the pump, pump cover or timing cover is disturbed.
