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EightSecV6
MDBL
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Tony,
Sorry you had to leave the Nats, my condolences to you. Looks like you had some spooling issues but I am sure once you get that sorted out, you'll be at the front of the pack. I sure wish you had been there for the peer tech......it would have taken some heat off us!
Sorry you had to leave the Nats, my condolences to you. Looks like you had some spooling issues but I am sure once you get that sorted out, you'll be at the front of the pack. I sure wish you had been there for the peer tech......it would have taken some heat off us!
Ted,
Thanks it felt good to get back on the horse. Bill thank you I wish I could have stayed but family comes first. (spooling issues) thats putting it mildly it took me a while to figure out what was going on. I wish i was at the peer tech I might have been DQ I have a burnt out taillight bulb
What do you think of that new turbo that thing looks killer beautiful job mounting it. Now just get jeff some more seat time
.Joe Lubrant
" The Right Stuff "
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
- Messages
- 587
Why did Tony’s car ALSO have the same issues with any of the OFFICIAL TSO RULES below???1.) Any single 3-bolt or 4-bolt stock location turbo allowed.
2.) A 4”maximum size, stock location downpipe is allowed w/ a 5" inlet/transition at the turbo reduced down to 4” immediately after the 90* elbow at the turbo exit.
3.) A 4”maximum size single or dual exhaust system is allowed. It must muffle and exit at/behind the rear axle tube(s), away from the car, equal to the lower bodyline. ***(Should add securely fasten?)
4.) Complete, painted Buick Turbo Regal/Grand National body required. (Normal OEM body’s includes a radiator support***…I also found it a good place to help secure my hood?)
Don’t’ know what turbo he has or its stock or non-stock location/orientation but, items 1 & 2 still would have applied. The Turbo Type issue remains an open item which I am told will be defined or clarified at a later date for next year. Although not clearly defined, but thru Board Posts, it was basically understood that the Y2K was to be allowed (Allow Jack C. to compete). Hence the dimensional comparison pursued later during protest.
The turbo protest was voiced first to me by others in the class, some how along the way, I became the Lone Ranger.without Tonto.
In any event with most in the class agreeing that 4 to 5 infractions existed on the car it was still allowed to run.
I wondered if my car had the same infractions would you or anyone else be that generous or forgiving??? I tend to doubt it…….”If the shoe was on the other foot”???
We did our best to bring a TSO car that complied with all the rules, it did!! Knowing full well what they were, since they were published far in advance of the Nats. I didn’t write the rules, but had no problem complying with them. Even though I didn’t truly agree with all as written. Don’t understand why you or anyone else had a problem with complying fully?
I’m glad I only had to worry about my clear Head Light Covers & my burned out Brake Bulb.
We came to a knife fight with a knife….others elected to bring guns & cannons! If I remember correctly last year in Md., the knife you had did pretty well?
I do not write this as personal attack…..but as what racers normally do when it comes to rules. I could have taken the same approach regarding use of a different turbo, but that would have sealed the deal for the Stage II Headed cars. I was surprised that you elected to take that step with GN-1, and of course you will get support from them.
Remember its not just about turbo its about the HP potential and eventually the demise of parity between the different combo’s.
If they truly wish no limit of configurations allowed, maybe they should just start a new class???
The carnage is bad enough as it is for the class, GN-1 headed cars still have issues with reliability at the power levels we are at. The Stage II heads will sustain those levels & beyond more easily/reliably.
Most if not all cars in the class are chassis Cerified 8.50 et., I stated before 8.50’s are attainable with 1200-1250 hp rated turbo’s, there is no need for the class to go to 14 or 1500hp turbo’s
You yourself lobbied heavily for WINGS for Safety & Stability, others for WHEELIE BARS for the same reason etc. etc. Where do we draw the line on HP for these already fast stock-style suspension cars??? You had to see most of the faster TSO cars moving all over the track as the conditions were not the best?? Additional power will only cause greater Safety concerns.
EightSecV6
MDBL
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Joe,
I felt we totally complied with the rules, I know the potential of the turbo we have, we dyno'd it compared to the old "knife" and it is promising on the GN1 heads. Think about it for a second Joe, ALL 7 CARS in front of us were tech'd by peers in 10 minutes or less,FOR ALL OF THEM,you were there, you saw it! When it came down to Jeffs car,nearly 45 minutes were spent on his alone... it was ridiculous, it went from things like " it doesnt have a core support, he cant run it", OR " if they let the turbo in, it is not in the stock location" (when in fact it is, just turned it sideways, and as far as I can remember, no Buick ever came from the factory with stage 2 heads, therefore, the turbo on a S2 headed car is NOT in the stock location either if you want to get REAL technical) OR "if they let the turbo, the location,and the core support go (nothing about that in the rules) then the exhaust is 4" short".
I COMMEND you Joe and Dan for voicing your opinions, many others were whispering on the sidelines as some of our crew heard, and I felt you were being used as THEIR spokesman as well, and you are correct, it made you LOOK like the Lone Ranger, however, we know now that is not the case. Cal told me word for word " you guys dont want this to come to a (anonymous) vote or you guys are OUT!"
The reason I lobbied for the wing was so we would not have to remove it just for the GS Nats and it is a safety issue, when we crank in the power, it somewhat moves around on the top end as you have seen in your own car, basically as we are permitted to run the car as it sits in other local venues and it would be foolish for us to reconfigure our set up JUST for the GS Nats (the same goes for the turbo)Here is my take on the turbo, Cal had the old housings with the new GT47-88 wheels in it, supposedly an experimental unit, I spoke to him about it ,he was honest and confirmed that as being the case. Were there other ones in the class? I surely dont know and probably couldnt confirm it without a side by side comparison.I did not plan on dragging 2 cars 800 miles to be hammered in the TSO class by technology that was not available to me, I made a decision on a turbo change that I felt would even the stakes a bit (and it will...) spoke to PTE about it and bought a mid frame PT47-88 several weeks ago, you personally knew this and I can only ASSUME you knew what my intentions were. My first words in Peer Tech were " I dont have ANY issues with ANY car in line, let' em all race."I personally wouldnt have had a problem with yours even if there were "infractions" but that is just me.
Jeff is still very "green" driving the car as I am sure all who witnessed can confirm that, he is a bundle of nerves but I think with time he will come around,he wanted me to drive it, that aint gonna happen, (not that I could have done any better!) Otto was a BIG underdog in the 2nd round against Jeff but he STILL put him in the trailer (congrats by the way) and he made it all the way to the finals with a car that qualified at the lower part of the field, so obviously its not all about the car.
Dan went through them like a hot knife through butter, was I pissed? hell yes!!! You guys had the better car and driver, you won the class despite all the other crap that went on! Congratulations and GREAT JOB!
We plan to have the same car there next year as it sits, if the rules write us out, we wont race in TSO, not the end of the world. I read one of your other posts and it sounded as if it were a retirement speech and I even read mention of value if you were selling the car! If you are involved with writing a new set of rules or further defining what we already have, I surely hope you intend to race in the class at Bowling Green.
We all know, the race at BG is for bragging rights (which you have earned!) it surely doesn't pay enough to feed the family, but winning there is something we all desire, basically it is a "fun" race.Hopefully we'll be able to compete against you guys next year and get our chance to brag.
I get the impression from your post above that your are upset with me for campaigning in the TSO class with a car that did not meet your iterpretation of the rules, when in fact it really didnt matter in the end because you still kicked our asses! No hard feelings here Joe, you guys won fair and square as far as I am concerned. and I hope you continue racing the car and raising the bar.
Tony , if you lasted this long....real happy with the turbo, I'd be glad to discuss our findings privately, call me if you like.
I felt we totally complied with the rules, I know the potential of the turbo we have, we dyno'd it compared to the old "knife" and it is promising on the GN1 heads. Think about it for a second Joe, ALL 7 CARS in front of us were tech'd by peers in 10 minutes or less,FOR ALL OF THEM,you were there, you saw it! When it came down to Jeffs car,nearly 45 minutes were spent on his alone... it was ridiculous, it went from things like " it doesnt have a core support, he cant run it", OR " if they let the turbo in, it is not in the stock location" (when in fact it is, just turned it sideways, and as far as I can remember, no Buick ever came from the factory with stage 2 heads, therefore, the turbo on a S2 headed car is NOT in the stock location either if you want to get REAL technical) OR "if they let the turbo, the location,and the core support go (nothing about that in the rules) then the exhaust is 4" short".
I COMMEND you Joe and Dan for voicing your opinions, many others were whispering on the sidelines as some of our crew heard, and I felt you were being used as THEIR spokesman as well, and you are correct, it made you LOOK like the Lone Ranger, however, we know now that is not the case. Cal told me word for word " you guys dont want this to come to a (anonymous) vote or you guys are OUT!"
The reason I lobbied for the wing was so we would not have to remove it just for the GS Nats and it is a safety issue, when we crank in the power, it somewhat moves around on the top end as you have seen in your own car, basically as we are permitted to run the car as it sits in other local venues and it would be foolish for us to reconfigure our set up JUST for the GS Nats (the same goes for the turbo)Here is my take on the turbo, Cal had the old housings with the new GT47-88 wheels in it, supposedly an experimental unit, I spoke to him about it ,he was honest and confirmed that as being the case. Were there other ones in the class? I surely dont know and probably couldnt confirm it without a side by side comparison.I did not plan on dragging 2 cars 800 miles to be hammered in the TSO class by technology that was not available to me, I made a decision on a turbo change that I felt would even the stakes a bit (and it will...) spoke to PTE about it and bought a mid frame PT47-88 several weeks ago, you personally knew this and I can only ASSUME you knew what my intentions were. My first words in Peer Tech were " I dont have ANY issues with ANY car in line, let' em all race."I personally wouldnt have had a problem with yours even if there were "infractions" but that is just me.
Jeff is still very "green" driving the car as I am sure all who witnessed can confirm that, he is a bundle of nerves but I think with time he will come around,he wanted me to drive it, that aint gonna happen, (not that I could have done any better!) Otto was a BIG underdog in the 2nd round against Jeff but he STILL put him in the trailer (congrats by the way) and he made it all the way to the finals with a car that qualified at the lower part of the field, so obviously its not all about the car.
Dan went through them like a hot knife through butter, was I pissed? hell yes!!! You guys had the better car and driver, you won the class despite all the other crap that went on! Congratulations and GREAT JOB!
We plan to have the same car there next year as it sits, if the rules write us out, we wont race in TSO, not the end of the world. I read one of your other posts and it sounded as if it were a retirement speech and I even read mention of value if you were selling the car! If you are involved with writing a new set of rules or further defining what we already have, I surely hope you intend to race in the class at Bowling Green.
We all know, the race at BG is for bragging rights (which you have earned!) it surely doesn't pay enough to feed the family, but winning there is something we all desire, basically it is a "fun" race.Hopefully we'll be able to compete against you guys next year and get our chance to brag.
I get the impression from your post above that your are upset with me for campaigning in the TSO class with a car that did not meet your iterpretation of the rules, when in fact it really didnt matter in the end because you still kicked our asses! No hard feelings here Joe, you guys won fair and square as far as I am concerned. and I hope you continue racing the car and raising the bar.
Tony , if you lasted this long....real happy with the turbo, I'd be glad to discuss our findings privately, call me if you like.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
- Messages
- 1,494
Bill,
IMO your car wasn't legal in by any stretch of the imagination. And for the record I said to let you race, even when of all the racers there, I could've been the most bitter about it since I got DQ'ed in 04 for a completely assinine reason.
Where were you all winter long when we had over 20 pages of discussions on the rules and the general consensus was to keep large frame turbos out of the class? How is the GT47/88 considered a mid-frame turbo?
I say list the currently available housings from Turbonetics, garrett, and PTE that are considered mid-frame and let only those housings be legal for the class. I lobbied to do this over the winter.
One thing that also needs to be considered is none of these cars are legal beyond 8.50. Do we really need a turbo that is capable of 8.00's?
I would still like to see a points series and several races. We have another race coming up in August for the BPG Nats. How many of you guys plan to come? We plan to run the same rules as the NATS and if your car was legal for BG then it will be legal for BPG. I feel we settled on a set of rules for this year and I haven;t seen any of the large turbo cars running away with this class. Thats not to say it won't happen but I'm at least willing to sit back and see.
The TSO points series after BG:
1. Joe/Dan 310 points
2. Otto 265
3. Jack 215
4. Jeff 165
5. Me 165
6. Odell 115
7. 8. 9. 10. I'm not sure how the rest of the feild would fall if you qualified with a 9.99 you would have 75 points. If you simply showed up and made one pass that wasn't 9.99 you would have 25 points.
IMO your car wasn't legal in by any stretch of the imagination. And for the record I said to let you race, even when of all the racers there, I could've been the most bitter about it since I got DQ'ed in 04 for a completely assinine reason.
Where were you all winter long when we had over 20 pages of discussions on the rules and the general consensus was to keep large frame turbos out of the class? How is the GT47/88 considered a mid-frame turbo?
I say list the currently available housings from Turbonetics, garrett, and PTE that are considered mid-frame and let only those housings be legal for the class. I lobbied to do this over the winter.
One thing that also needs to be considered is none of these cars are legal beyond 8.50. Do we really need a turbo that is capable of 8.00's?
I would still like to see a points series and several races. We have another race coming up in August for the BPG Nats. How many of you guys plan to come? We plan to run the same rules as the NATS and if your car was legal for BG then it will be legal for BPG. I feel we settled on a set of rules for this year and I haven;t seen any of the large turbo cars running away with this class. Thats not to say it won't happen but I'm at least willing to sit back and see.
The TSO points series after BG:
1. Joe/Dan 310 points
2. Otto 265
3. Jack 215
4. Jeff 165
5. Me 165
6. Odell 115
7. 8. 9. 10. I'm not sure how the rest of the feild would fall if you qualified with a 9.99 you would have 75 points. If you simply showed up and made one pass that wasn't 9.99 you would have 25 points.
EightSecV6
MDBL
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- Jul 18, 2001
- Messages
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Chris, in your opinion, what made the car not legal? Was it the turbo alone? It is considered by the manuf. to be a mid frame 88,(Harry was there and he confirmed it, Dave Fiscus had the same unit as well) the turbo on MY car is a large frame, it is considerably bigger.I am not aware of 20 pages regarding particulars on the turbo we had.If you can povide a link I sure would like to see them.The GS Nats is not the only place we race, the car has to be competitive for 10.5" local stuff too. I respect your opinion, however, we took a beating in tech and if for some reason Jeff would have won, it would have more than likely been protested.I for one dont want to go through that again, if the rules write us out, we're out. It's not a big deal, you wont see me crying and whining, no hard feelings! It's a fun and fast class,I hope it stays that way.
Thanks
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
- Messages
- 1,494
When we discussed this both on the GSCA board and on Cottons website I was under the impression the 47/88 was a large frame turbo and was not going to be allowed in the class. I even sent you a few private e-mails concerning the discussions we were having at the time.
The problem lies in the fact that there is no clear definition of what constitutes a large or mid frame turbo. I've asked and still don't have an answer. That is why I believe there should be a list of accepted housings from the three manufactures.
There were some other issues with your car but to be honest I didn't pay that much attention as I sat on a golf cart while all of the quibbling was going on. I had no issues with you guys running and was curious to see how it turned out with that monster. I still think it should have a warning label for small animals and children
You guys are in fourth with the points series since you qualified higher than me at BG. I will be at Quaker with the bugs worked out of my race program and looking for a good class of cars and guys to race with. Hope to see you there.
The problem lies in the fact that there is no clear definition of what constitutes a large or mid frame turbo. I've asked and still don't have an answer. That is why I believe there should be a list of accepted housings from the three manufactures.
There were some other issues with your car but to be honest I didn't pay that much attention as I sat on a golf cart while all of the quibbling was going on. I had no issues with you guys running and was curious to see how it turned out with that monster. I still think it should have a warning label for small animals and children
You guys are in fourth with the points series since you qualified higher than me at BG. I will be at Quaker with the bugs worked out of my race program and looking for a good class of cars and guys to race with. Hope to see you there.
EightSecV6
MDBL
- Joined
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- Messages
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I agree 100% and that was the case when I got the turbo from PTE. It is classified by Harry a a 47-88 Mid Frame
[/B][/QUOTE] You guys are in fourth with the points series since you qualified higher than me at BG. I will be at Quaker with the bugs worked out of my race program and looking for a good class of cars and guys to race with. Hope to see you there. [/B][/QUOTE]
We have talked about it and plan to be there, but we are only going to bring one car, if the TSO class looks like it is going to be a good turnout, we'll bring the TSO car, if not, we'll bring the fast car!
tso,
beyond 8.50 ? dont mean much to me but my old slo car is NHRA certified down to 7.50 but when it runs out in 9-06 it will be 8.50 i talked to the nhra guy that was certifing cars at bg for about an hour he told me what i had to do the chassic to recertified to 7,50 believe me i dont want to besides i wont never make it that far or even 8.50 in my life time, next year im running q-16 no hassle, no bickering. no one getting upset, besides you guys are too fast for me
beyond 8.50 ? dont mean much to me but my old slo car is NHRA certified down to 7.50 but when it runs out in 9-06 it will be 8.50 i talked to the nhra guy that was certifing cars at bg for about an hour he told me what i had to do the chassic to recertified to 7,50 believe me i dont want to besides i wont never make it that far or even 8.50 in my life time, next year im running q-16 no hassle, no bickering. no one getting upset, besides you guys are too fast for me
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
- Messages
- 1,494
Great, I look forward to seeing you all there. I too have no desire to go faster than 8.50. Actually, I'm hoping to have a consistent 8.80 car when I'm all done that doesn't break. I'm working on having the TSO class run Sat night so that the competitors can race the Q16 on Sunday. The BPG pays $1000 winner $500 RU for TSO and I believe $2500 for Q16. I'll have more info as soon as the BOD is in control again. I know the BPG is excited about seeing us race again and wants to see more turbo cars in the field this year.
OC I sent you a PM on your weldon did you get it? I hope you are planning to make BPG again this year.
OC I sent you a PM on your weldon did you get it? I hope you are planning to make BPG again this year.
TSO
thanks chris, my torque conv, went so did the direct clutches in my tranny, i learnt something about converters if they screw up sometimes you cant build boost. i fixed the fuel pump, ill use it for a spare. dan at dls is sending me a new neil chance bolt together convertor, he seemed to have one working in joes car. i allready repaired my trans, as i have plenty of parts for them, i should have the convertor by end of next week, now i need to sell some of my old stage parts to pay dan later,,,
thanks chris, my torque conv, went so did the direct clutches in my tranny, i learnt something about converters if they screw up sometimes you cant build boost. i fixed the fuel pump, ill use it for a spare. dan at dls is sending me a new neil chance bolt together convertor, he seemed to have one working in joes car. i allready repaired my trans, as i have plenty of parts for them, i should have the convertor by end of next week, now i need to sell some of my old stage parts to pay dan
later,,,Joe Lubrant
" The Right Stuff "
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
- Messages
- 587
____________________________________________________
Quote by Billy A.
I COMMEND you Joe and Dan for voicing your opinions, many others were whispering on the sidelines as some of our crew heard, and I felt you were being used as THEIR spokesman as well, and you are correct, it made you LOOK like the Lone Ranger, however, we know now that is not the case….. Cal told me word for word " you guys dont want this to come to a (anonymous) vote or you guys are OUT!"
____________________________________________________
Thanks, Your right that was a fair assessment of the feelings of the MAJORITY in the class. Some elected to remain slilent, when they originally agreed to express their true feelings and draw the line. Yes it should have come down to a (anonymous) vote. Yes you would have definitely been “OUT”.
As Chris pointed out, along with the MAJORITY of others in the class, the understanding was to permit the Y2K turbo in, to allow additional participation. Since the PTE Standard T4 was the only viable choice for the class prior to the change.
Even you had stated in previous posts, we just can’t have PTE as the only choice vendor for the 88 turbo’s. So the concensus agreement was to allow the Turbonetics Y2K 80 or 88mm. This would allow Jack C. to particpate. (Which he did.) I believe everyone including myself felt this was the end of the turbo rule controversy for the TSO class. Guess Not!!!
Now we have come full circle and Guess What?? If the current turbo you have is truly allowed, then the PTE turbo is again the only viable choice for the class??? Not only that but you stated early it makes more power!! Makes no sense to me, based on what was the real intent of the rule change in the first place!! Keep the power levels wthin acceptable limits!!!, and allow other comparable turbo to the PT88 T4 power level in.!
Large- Frame, Small- Frame, Mid-Frame…….Yada, Yada,..Yada… Thumper, Non-Thumper, GT, Non-GT, Hybrid, Custom etc. etc. Who cares what some Mfg or someone calls their turbo’s ????
The Mid-Frame wording hang-up is the true culprit and should be deleted from the rules.
I personally didn’t care what a specific individual had to say about the legality of the turbo in question. Although I’m sure his intentions were honorable.
My feelings relating to this issue ran very deep, and I expressed it by taking my appropriate action.
The term Mid-Frame is sort of AMBIGUOUS, when trying to treat ALL 88mm type turbo's as equals in power potential. As I said before, it also relates to End Packaging. (Compressor Cover & Turbine Housing Type) You can’t say a 1500hp turbo is comparable t a 1250hp turbo…Apples & Oranges.
The Majority of the Racers knew the reason for the rule change and the true meaning & intent. Others felt they could just run what they wanted, possibly because of their stature, without consideration to the other racers in the class.
BTW I did not know you were going to use the turbo that was beween you and someone else at PTE.
The intent to run the turbo by you or others could have been publicized in advance, but it was not, knowing full well that protests would be made. The other 2 cars might have also been protested. 1 fell to carnage,and Tony G had to leave for personal reasons. ( Sorry to hear about your family loss Tony, sincere condolences & prayers)
BTW Billy—Stock Location?? I think the rule about trimming the wheel well was for allowance of down pipe clearance………….Not to cut open to fit the Turbo compressor cover????…heck there’s another infraction???????? The list just keeps building, but heck I’m sure you had your own interpretation relating to that also????
People running the TSO class are surely smart enough to know when they are being snookered!!!
I truly feel sorry for the fellow that got DQ’d in the other class for his Tires being .200” Over Tread width rule. The tolerance for rule infractions should have been administered equally across all Classes??? Don’t you agree???? Maybe Not???
The rules should be written, to exclude or allow specific limitations dimensionally, to achieve the desired power levels attainable for the class. If this means 1200-1250hp so be it!
“THE RULES ARE FOR EVERYONE” They were written in English….No Interpreter Needed !!
I’m pretty sure what the Majority of the class feels is the appropriate level, and hope they fully express their true opinions openly on this forum or elsewhere.
Sorry if I have ruffled any feathers but everyone should be treated equally as far as rule compliance.
It doesn’t matter how well known you or anyone else is in the community. The organization (including BPG) needs to enforce the rules as written appropriately and equally to all.
Chris… In your previous post regarding BG & BGP….. I don’t believe the official call was the car was legal?? I believe we said let it run?? (under protest)…….I’m pretty sure most all agreed it was illegal….so the saga continues. Bragging rights Under Protest is not as sweet?????? Or is IT??
Fellows don’t stand in the background whispering; let your true feelings for the class be known. You have a right to be competitive, and catch up to the levels attained so far. If you need help with direction or questions with your set-up let me know.
I no longer wish to be the Lone Ranger!… Tonto could chime in here???? I think you know who you are??
Its not the time for anyone to remain neutral….its time to really define the class and stop rule changes and re-set-up on these very expensive cars.
The Carnage is Terrible at this level…6 out of 11 cars made actual race day. Still had plenty of 1, 2, & 3 Pass Wonders that fell by the way side.
Plenty of parts falling off the cars…hoods flying into the other lane, lets be safe….ok…Duct tape is fine!…no body will protest anymore!
Give me a break…some people expressed not only Jeff’s safety, but also for the poor fellow in the other lane…….I seriously think It is not a Joking matter…but others will make light of it?
Sure it would be nice for me to brag that I went 8.49 at 164 once, but blew the crap out of my engine is the not so nice part!!!
Lets get real and seriously define the class stick to it, let it grow, and Safely Have Fun.
Quote by Billy A.
I COMMEND you Joe and Dan for voicing your opinions, many others were whispering on the sidelines as some of our crew heard, and I felt you were being used as THEIR spokesman as well, and you are correct, it made you LOOK like the Lone Ranger, however, we know now that is not the case….. Cal told me word for word " you guys dont want this to come to a (anonymous) vote or you guys are OUT!"
____________________________________________________
Thanks, Your right that was a fair assessment of the feelings of the MAJORITY in the class. Some elected to remain slilent, when they originally agreed to express their true feelings and draw the line. Yes it should have come down to a (anonymous) vote. Yes you would have definitely been “OUT”.
As Chris pointed out, along with the MAJORITY of others in the class, the understanding was to permit the Y2K turbo in, to allow additional participation. Since the PTE Standard T4 was the only viable choice for the class prior to the change.
Even you had stated in previous posts, we just can’t have PTE as the only choice vendor for the 88 turbo’s. So the concensus agreement was to allow the Turbonetics Y2K 80 or 88mm. This would allow Jack C. to particpate. (Which he did.) I believe everyone including myself felt this was the end of the turbo rule controversy for the TSO class. Guess Not!!!
Now we have come full circle and Guess What?? If the current turbo you have is truly allowed, then the PTE turbo is again the only viable choice for the class??? Not only that but you stated early it makes more power!! Makes no sense to me, based on what was the real intent of the rule change in the first place!! Keep the power levels wthin acceptable limits!!!, and allow other comparable turbo to the PT88 T4 power level in.!
Large- Frame, Small- Frame, Mid-Frame…….Yada, Yada,..Yada… Thumper, Non-Thumper, GT, Non-GT, Hybrid, Custom etc. etc. Who cares what some Mfg or someone calls their turbo’s ????
The Mid-Frame wording hang-up is the true culprit and should be deleted from the rules.
I personally didn’t care what a specific individual had to say about the legality of the turbo in question. Although I’m sure his intentions were honorable.
My feelings relating to this issue ran very deep, and I expressed it by taking my appropriate action.
The term Mid-Frame is sort of AMBIGUOUS, when trying to treat ALL 88mm type turbo's as equals in power potential. As I said before, it also relates to End Packaging. (Compressor Cover & Turbine Housing Type) You can’t say a 1500hp turbo is comparable t a 1250hp turbo…Apples & Oranges.
The Majority of the Racers knew the reason for the rule change and the true meaning & intent. Others felt they could just run what they wanted, possibly because of their stature, without consideration to the other racers in the class.
BTW I did not know you were going to use the turbo that was beween you and someone else at PTE.
The intent to run the turbo by you or others could have been publicized in advance, but it was not, knowing full well that protests would be made. The other 2 cars might have also been protested. 1 fell to carnage,and Tony G had to leave for personal reasons. ( Sorry to hear about your family loss Tony, sincere condolences & prayers)
BTW Billy—Stock Location?? I think the rule about trimming the wheel well was for allowance of down pipe clearance………….Not to cut open to fit the Turbo compressor cover????…heck there’s another infraction???????? The list just keeps building, but heck I’m sure you had your own interpretation relating to that also????
People running the TSO class are surely smart enough to know when they are being snookered!!!
I truly feel sorry for the fellow that got DQ’d in the other class for his Tires being .200” Over Tread width rule. The tolerance for rule infractions should have been administered equally across all Classes??? Don’t you agree???? Maybe Not???
The rules should be written, to exclude or allow specific limitations dimensionally, to achieve the desired power levels attainable for the class. If this means 1200-1250hp so be it!
“THE RULES ARE FOR EVERYONE” They were written in English….No Interpreter Needed !!
I’m pretty sure what the Majority of the class feels is the appropriate level, and hope they fully express their true opinions openly on this forum or elsewhere.
Sorry if I have ruffled any feathers but everyone should be treated equally as far as rule compliance.
It doesn’t matter how well known you or anyone else is in the community. The organization (including BPG) needs to enforce the rules as written appropriately and equally to all.
Chris… In your previous post regarding BG & BGP….. I don’t believe the official call was the car was legal?? I believe we said let it run?? (under protest)…….I’m pretty sure most all agreed it was illegal….so the saga continues. Bragging rights Under Protest is not as sweet?????? Or is IT??
Fellows don’t stand in the background whispering; let your true feelings for the class be known. You have a right to be competitive, and catch up to the levels attained so far. If you need help with direction or questions with your set-up let me know.
I no longer wish to be the Lone Ranger!… Tonto could chime in here???? I think you know who you are??
Its not the time for anyone to remain neutral….its time to really define the class and stop rule changes and re-set-up on these very expensive cars.
The Carnage is Terrible at this level…6 out of 11 cars made actual race day. Still had plenty of 1, 2, & 3 Pass Wonders that fell by the way side.
Plenty of parts falling off the cars…hoods flying into the other lane, lets be safe….ok…Duct tape is fine!…no body will protest anymore!
Give me a break…some people expressed not only Jeff’s safety, but also for the poor fellow in the other lane…….I seriously think It is not a Joking matter…but others will make light of it?
Sure it would be nice for me to brag that I went 8.49 at 164 once, but blew the crap out of my engine is the not so nice part!!!
Lets get real and seriously define the class stick to it, let it grow, and Safely Have Fun.
Wasnt it in the rules somewhere that T4 from turbos got 150# weight break?
Cause i am currently putting my car on a diet and need to know my limit.I will not change this PTE GTS76 Turbo as i feel there is more left in it and the combo altogether.
I cant believe the power difference between it and the GTQ76 i ran last year
So i am going to work around it,Unless i use the stage 2 motor i have,Then maybe ill run the 88 with It
Cause i am currently putting my car on a diet and need to know my limit.I will not change this PTE GTS76 Turbo as i feel there is more left in it and the combo altogether.
I cant believe the power difference between it and the GTQ76 i ran last year
So i am going to work around it,Unless i use the stage 2 motor i have,Then maybe ill run the 88 with It
EightSecV6
MDBL
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
- Messages
- 2,514
Joe, I dont know why you are so pissed? You won get over it! Do you or do you not plan to run in BG TSO for 2006? If you do, keep lobbiying for rule changes that will build the class around your car.
If not... your argument, comments, rule changes or whatever the hell you want to call it are absolutely worthless . As far as you not knowing what turbo we were using, total BS! READ MY POST in THIS thread from April 21, I made it clear to YOU what turbo we were going to run, read it again.
You know...I still chose to treat you with respect (as my elder and for no other reason!) in the staging lanes when you attempted to berate me and talk down to me during the peer tech as anyone there will attest to. I ingnored the BS you posted here as well but here you go once again with the cheap shots about the exhaust and hood. I no longer respect your arrogance, comments or you in general.I congratulated you on the win and the car, you elected to smear my face in it....WHY?The gloves are off, if you have no other intent than to get Jeff's car thrown out of the class you have entirely too much time on your hands.
Why dont you tell us all what it's like to race an 8 second car? how 'bout a 9 second car? IN FACT have you EVER made a 10 second pass?
If not... your argument, comments, rule changes or whatever the hell you want to call it are absolutely worthless . As far as you not knowing what turbo we were using, total BS! READ MY POST in THIS thread from April 21, I made it clear to YOU what turbo we were going to run, read it again.
You know...I still chose to treat you with respect (as my elder and for no other reason!) in the staging lanes when you attempted to berate me and talk down to me during the peer tech as anyone there will attest to. I ingnored the BS you posted here as well but here you go once again with the cheap shots about the exhaust and hood. I no longer respect your arrogance, comments or you in general.I congratulated you on the win and the car, you elected to smear my face in it....WHY?The gloves are off, if you have no other intent than to get Jeff's car thrown out of the class you have entirely too much time on your hands.
Why dont you tell us all what it's like to race an 8 second car? how 'bout a 9 second car? IN FACT have you EVER made a 10 second pass?
Joe,
I'm not sure if I'm the Tonto you are talking about. I have stayed out of all the TSO threads since I elected not to run the class after qualifying. Since I didn't race, I don't feel my opinion counts.
I was honest with Billy and Jeff when I told them that if it came to a vote, they would be out. Unfortunatly (or fortunatly), the ultimate decision was up to Nick. The car was illegal (if not the turbo, then the exhaust), and he elected to let them run. Even though my buddy Louie was sent packing from TSE because of his tires.
IMO: This turbo problem is because Turbonetics couldn't make a TO4 flanged turbo to compete with the PTE unit. Shame on PTE for making such a great product
I am on the rules committee for next year and will make sure the rules are quite clear in TSO and TSE. I hope to have another thread (like last year) on either Jack's board or the GSCA's for all of us to come up with a game plan. Whatever everyone decides will be clear in the rules, and on raceday there won't be any exceptions.
FWIW: Here's why I didn't race:
After running great Tuesday, my fuel pump went out on Wednesday. Got a new one Thursday (during the rain storm), only to find it was overwelming my regulator. Then had to replace the FP relay. The final draw was when my 16 volt battery decided to short out internally. If I wouldn't have been so busy tuning on over a dozen other cars, I would have tried to fix everything. I realize this is a lame excuse, but I was completly overwelmed and am going to have to make a decision next year on racing or tuning.
I hope you don't consider my car a "one pass wonder". I have one pass in the 8.5's, and six in the 8.6's, and no it didn't break after each pass.
