Tunning with an SD or a 6.1 (Chip).

[texasterror]

Ok I'm about to pull the trigger on purchasing a new chip (mine is outdated for my combo from my comvo with Eric) but I wanted to understand the pro's and cons of tuning using SD and tuning using the 6.1 chip (MAF). I have no clue how to tune but I have two good friend (Paul and Jeryl) who are good at this stuff and hopefully They will guide me through the tuning process . I've just installed my power logger for the most part (I just need to connect my boost guage and LC-1 wide band to it. for those that want to know about my T-Type: My car has a TE-60 Turbo, 3200 stall (cant remember the T/C vendor), stock iron heads but they are polished/cleaned, alky control, the tranny was build by Don Wang, front mount intercooler, 42# injectors (yes I will have to upgrade them and will do so when I purchase a chip), Engine is bored .30 over, the internals are forged (except for the crank, yes I know, I should have done this, RJC powerplate, scanmaster, hotwired.

So what are the pro's and cons between tuning with the SD chip and tuning with the 6.1 chip (MAF)? I believe the SD chip is more complicated but you can get more out of your car? I currently have the 5.7 chip which came with the car but I never upgraded the chip when I added the larger turbo and the other goodies so I need to send it in eventually.

 

[3.8L V-8 eater]

What did Eric suggest when you talked to him?? His opinion should mean more to you than any other...

 

[texasterror]

We didn't chat about the 6.1 vs SD. We chatted about the chip that was in my car and my combo. I provided him the serial number on the chip and he stated it was for a pretty much stock car and in theory, the chip shouldn't be to provide enough fuel so I will have to send it to him to upgrade. So with that in mind, I was leaning towards the 6.1 but I keep reading about the benefits of tuning with the SD so I was wondering the pro's and cons between the two. So far I noticed there are more pro's with the SD except it would be tricky to tune with a novice but I have some friends here that can help me. I literally about 10 minutes ago finished installing the scan master update to the 2.2, and installed the powerlogger, and the 3bar map (but I found out I already had one, oh well), and I routed my wide band and MAP to the powerlogger. I need to upgrade chips for sure and injectors but I wanted to make a choice about which chip.

 

[3.8L V-8 eater]

We didn't chat about the 6.1 vs SD. We chatted about the chip that was in my car and my combo. I provided him the serial number on the chip and he stated it was for a pretty much stock car and in theory, the chip shouldn't be to provide enough fuel so I will have to send it to him to upgrade. So with that in mind, I was leaning towards the 6.1 but I keep reading about the benefits of tuning with the SD so I was wondering the pro's and cons between the two. So far I noticed there are more pro's with the SD except it would be tricky to tune with a novice but I have some friends here that can help me. I literally about 10 minutes ago finished installing the scan master update to the 2.2, and installed the powerlogger, and the 3bar map (but I found out I already had one, oh well), and I routed my wide band and MAP to the powerlogger. I need to upgrade chips for sure and injectors but I wanted to make a choice about which chip.

I have also considered going to the SD2 chip...I have the power logger and all the goodies you mentioned which would make the transition to SD2 more practical cause you have everything....Bob and Eric will have a good base tune burned in the chip right out of the box plus you have support from buddies...

 

[TurboDave]

I have also considered going to the SD2 chip...I have the power logger and all the goodies you mentioned which would make the transition to SD2 more practical cause you have everything....Bob and Eric will have a good base tune burned in the chip right out of the box plus you have support from buddies...

This is true, the base tune that you get is usually pretty darn close!
As I told texasterror, the benefits of SD tuning are for more extensive than just a chip alone, but. For the novice, SD tuning can be intimidating, and sometimes overwhelming and discouraging. But....If one is willing to put in the time and effort and have the patience, the experience can be rewarding! I suggested the 6.1 might be a better choice for him but if he has friends near that are willing to help, maybe the jump to SD tuning is something he should consider.
It was easy for me because my previous system was the Translator Pro, so I grooved into the SD2 system with no trouble or effort, well, very little anyway.

I dont race anymore so most of my tuning efforts went into perfecting the street driving manners of the system. My goal was to end up with the system tune as near perfect as possible, and made it!! Cold start and drive off manners are perfect! Cruise manners are perfect and my WOT tune is also spot on
My idle target is 14.3, and it's rock solid, my cruise target is 14.7, and it's rock solid BECAUSE of the SD2's ability to do narrowband tracking during cruise(a little known feature of SD2)!!!!!! Regardless of what you may believe or hear, the narrowband IS THE BEST to use for cruise tracking!

Here's what my VE tuning efforts have yielded in cruise narrowband tracking! Notice the correction is cycling around zero and my AFR is near spot on 14.7 ish.

 

[BEATAV8]

If your car has a mild cam and injectors 95lb or smaller, chances are it will idle well at or near stoichiometric and a MAF based system is a good choice for you. If you have injectors ~95Lb or larger and a more aggressive camshaft then chances are the engine will not want to idle well near stoichiometric and then an SD system is a better way to go.

WOT tuning either system can work very well due to closed loop wideband and good tuning, but the MAF based systems that need to occasionally trim out the idle condition in closed loop on the narrow band really work best with combos that will run well at that condition. If the engine is too radical to idle at stoich then you will have drivability problems with a MAF.

 

[bpman1234]

good info here.

 

[3.8L V-8 eater]

This is true, the base tune that you get is usually pretty darn close!
As I told texasterror, the benefits of SD tuning are for more extensive than just a chip alone, but. For the novice, SD tuning can be intimidating, and sometimes overwhelming and discouraging. But....If one is willing to put in the time and effort and have the patience, the experience can be rewarding! I suggested the 6.1 might be a better choice for him but if he has friends near that are willing to help, maybe the jump to SD tuning is something he should consider.
It was easy for me because my previous system was the Translator Pro, so I grooved into the SD2 system with no trouble or effort, well, very little anyway.

I dont race anymore so most of my tuning efforts went into perfecting the street driving manners of the system. My goal was to end up with the system tune as near perfect as possible, and made it!! Cold start and drive off manners are perfect! Cruise manners are perfect and my WOT tune is also spot on
My idle target is 14.3, and it's rock solid, my cruise target is 14.7, and it's rock solid BECAUSE of the SD2's ability to do narrowband tracking during cruise(a little known feature of SD2)!!!!!! Regardless of what you may believe or hear, the narrowband IS THE BEST to use for cruise tracking!

Here's what my VE tuning efforts have yielded in cruise narrowband tracking! Notice the correction is cycling around zero and my AFR is near spot on 14.7 ish.

View attachment 247333

Dave,
What kind of fuel mileage are you seeing when staying out of the throttle??

 

[TurboDave]

I've never checked actual fuel mileage specifically yet, but... I can tell you one thing for sure. The differnce in fuel mileage between running full time wideband control or running narrowband control for cruise/light/moderate loads is HUGE!!!!!!
The Wideband just absolutely CAN NOT keep the cruise light load close enough to stoicheomentric values to come close to the VERY TIGHT control that the narrowband can control!!!!!!
It's a big enough difference that I can see the fuel gauge drop on just a short round trip to the cruise in and back. Round trip is only 20 miles and the gauge will drop a gallon or two on one trip while under wideband control.

On narrowband cotrol I can make that same trip twice before seeing same loss in fuel!!!!

Now, if one were living on perfectly flat land like Nebraska or Kansas, the difference may not be so big, but here where I live there is NO flat or straight piece of road more than a couple hundred yards long. We're always either going up and incline or down, and in a curve. And if you 've ever watched your wideband graph while getting in and out of the throttle, even a small amount the wideband makes some pretty big swings, and each swing takes time to get back to target.

 

[texasterror]

If your car has a mild cam and injectors 95lb or smaller, chances are it will idle well at or near stoichiometric and a MAF based system is a good choice for you. If you have injectors ~95Lb or larger and a more aggressive camshaft then chances are the engine will not want to idle well near stoichiometric and then an SD system is a better way to go.

WOT tuning either system can work very well due to closed loop wideband and good tuning, but the MAF based systems that need to occasionally trim out the idle condition in closed loop on the narrow band really work best with combos that will run well at that condition. If the engine is too radical to idle at stoich then you will have drivability problems with a MAF.

I have a 204/214 flat tapped cam so I don't think that's considered mild (im not sure if it is or not). I plan on ordering the 80# injectors as soon as they are in stock so that's still below the threshold you where speaking about. This might sound stupid but is a MAFless system a better route to go and if so why? I was thinking of going that route. I have a stock maf. From you are telling me, I believe you are stating that for my combo, a 6.1 would be better.

Oh and everyone thanks for the advice. my car has been down for years (since 2009) and I just got it up and running so now im getting into the tuning part.

 

[texasterror]

This is true, the base tune that you get is usually pretty darn close!
As I told texasterror, the benefits of SD tuning are for more extensive than just a chip alone, but. For the novice, SD tuning can be intimidating, and sometimes overwhelming and discouraging. But....If one is willing to put in the time and effort and have the patience, the experience can be rewarding! I suggested the 6.1 might be a better choice for him but if he has friends near that are willing to help, maybe the jump to SD tuning is something he should consider.
It was easy for me because my previous system was the Translator Pro, so I grooved into the SD2 system with no trouble or effort, well, very little anyway.

I dont race anymore so most of my tuning efforts went into perfecting the street driving manners of the system. My goal was to end up with the system tune as near perfect as possible, and made it!! Cold start and drive off manners are perfect! Cruise manners are perfect and my WOT tune is also spot on
My idle target is 14.3, and it's rock solid, my cruise target is 14.7, and it's rock solid BECAUSE of the SD2's ability to do narrowband tracking during cruise(a little known feature of SD2)!!!!!! Regardless of what you may believe or hear, the narrowband IS THE BEST to use for cruise tracking!

Here's what my VE tuning efforts have yielded in cruise narrowband tracking! Notice the correction is cycling around zero and my AFR is near spot on 14.7 ish.

View attachment 247333

What's your combo? I just logged my first cruise yesterday and I was thinking of posting it. As soon as I figure out how to open a Dat file i'll do so.

 

[bpman1234]

Dat file only opens with power logger

 

[TurboDave]

What's your combo? I just logged my first cruise yesterday and I was thinking of posting it. As soon as I figure out how to open a Dat file i'll do so.

My combo is a bone stock motor, except for a few bolt on's such as MSD 50 injectors, V2 front mount IC, TE44 turbo.
Powerlogger, scanmaster 2.2, SD2

 

[BEATAV8]

I have a 204/214 flat tapped cam so I don't think that's considered mild (im not sure if it is or not). I plan on ordering the 80# injectors as soon as they are in stock so that's still below the threshold you where speaking about. This might sound stupid but is a MAFless system a better route to go and if so why? I was thinking of going that route. I have a stock maf. From you are telling me, I believe you are stating that for my combo, a 6.1 would be better.

Oh and everyone thanks for the advice. my car has been down for years (since 2009) and I just got it up and running so now im getting into the tuning part.

That cam/injector combo will idle well at stoich and be able to execute a "learn" as is periodically needed before the chip switches to open loop idle. A 6.1 would be easier to tune, but you could use either system and essentially get the same results. If you were running 120's then you would want to go with an SD.

 

[WHTTRSH]

That cam/injector combo will idle well at stoich and be able to execute a "learn" as is periodically needed before the chip switches to open loop idle. A 6.1 would be easier to tune, but you could use either system and essentially get the same results. If you were running 120's then you would want to go with an SD.

So huge injectors and cam go w an SD2 chip. Now w #80 injectors and 214/214 cam would you go w a 6.1 chip or Extender Extreme chip?

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

If you have the PL and Wideband go with the SD2. The learning curve is easy and the chip for the most part will keep you out of trouble as long as you don't make any major changes. Once you ( Understand ) what the chip can do you'll be glad you didn't get the 6.1.

 

[WHTTRSH]

Eric at turbo tweaked just got to me and suggested the 6.1 from the three; SD2,6.1,extender extreme for my setup...

 

[WHTTRSH]

If the SD2 is just more complicated but will get me further that's what I'm going with. It's not overwhelming to me to learn the numbers and tune my car accordingly. I have the time for that.

 

[1952ray]

Eric at turbo tweaked just got to me and suggested the 6.1 from the three; SD2,6.1,extender extreme for my setup...

Intesting thread. My car is at Richard Clarks shop,Both Richard and Clint said for me to go with the 6.1 not the SD2.

 

[BARRACUDA1968]

If you have a PL and wideband is makes no sense to go 6.1. Both chips come with a base map..a calculated guess if you will. Why not get the chip that let's you fully tune your car. It's not hard to learn if you're willing to spend some time with it. I didn't really need to mess with my SD2 at WOT or cruising but it's nice to get the car from an 80% decent tune to a 95% tune all around. Can't do that with a 6.1 on your own.