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Turbo lag,stock manifolds vs headers

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send me some pics of your headers, i have some stock ones thats not been welded on,, might do some trading...
 
Here is what i'm thinking,+ also was told is the route to go.
Just slapping a real loose converter on there does get you into the boost,quicker when launching,so you are not really feeling the lag as much off the line,because you are now leaving the line revving more, but is somewhat of a bandaid approach.
1. you now have to live with that loose converter all the time,which i got sick of on my daily driver camaro.
2. by going to the stock manifolds you are actually widening the power band + giving it back some lower rpm power,probably giving it a stronger midrange + possibly top end too.+ better throttle response thru most of the power band with better exhaust velocity + temp.
3. It does have somewhat of a looser converter in it already, I'm thinking once low end power is restored with the stock manifolds ,it will cause the converter to act more like a higher stall converter,(not like a 9 inch but may be just right for this aplication).The low end power is just so weak that its not making enough grunt to spin the torque converter up to a proper stall.I would first do the headers because with this combo they are not helping in any way + doing exactly the opposite, (hurting the power).I'm not sure on these cars how much you feel the small/loose converters in everyday driving,(non boost situations,)but as i said it ended up bothering me in my everyday driven camaro(+ it wasn't a very high stall converter.).They also cause more heat in your trans etc. You still may want a higher stall converter in the future but ,I think just putting a loose converter first will just cover up 1 problem,(launch) + then you have to live with it if you don't like it.I would fix the low rpm problem first then sort out the converter.(which may not even be a problem when the low/mid end power is restored,)remember it does have a looser then stock, converter.
Now if it did have a stock converter in it, I would imedietly say ,It absolutely needs a converter.I think restore power first see where your at then think about a looser converter.(If needed).
 
t-typinator said:
Here is what i'm thinking,+ also was told is the route to go.
Just slapping a real loose converter on there does get you into the boost,quicker when launching,so you are not really feeling the lag as much off the line,because you are now leaving the line revving more, but is somewhat of a bandaid approach.
1. you now have to live with that loose converter all the time,which i got sick of on my daily driver camaro.
2. by going to the stock manifolds you are actually widening the power band + giving it back some lower rpm power,probably giving it a stronger midrange + possibly top end too.+ better throttle response thru most of the power band with better exhaust velocity + temp.
3. It does have somewhat of a looser converter in it already, I'm thinking once low end power is restored with the stock manifolds ,it will cause the converter to act more like a higher stall converter,(not like a 9 inch but may be just right for this aplication).The low end power is just so weak that its not making enough grunt to spin the torque converter up to a proper stall.I would first do the headers because with this combo they are not helping in any way + doing exactly the opposite, (hurting the power).I'm not sure on these cars how much you feel the small/loose converters in everyday driving,(non boost situations,)but as i said it ended up bothering me in my everyday driven camaro(+ it wasn't a very high stall converter.).They also cause more heat in your trans etc. You still may want a higher stall converter in the future but ,I think just putting a loose converter first will just cover up 1 problem,(launch) + then you have to live with it if you don't like it.I would fix the low rpm problem first then sort out the converter.(which may not even be a problem when the low/mid end power is restored,)remember it does have a looser then stock, converter.
Now if it did have a stock converter in it, I would imedietly say ,It absolutely needs a converter.I think restore power first see where your at then think about a looser converter.(If needed).
Click to expand...

The exhaust will be the first thing I do, trying to find out if thats something I can tackle or better to take to a shop.
 
Crazy Turbo said:
The exhaust will be the first thing I do, trying to find out if thats something I can tackle or better to take to a shop.
Click to expand...

I don't think it should be too difficult your just unbolting things,+ then bolting the orig things in the same place,the turbo is still in its orig.place etc. should be pretty straight forward.
But i've never done it on one of these. Try doing it on a ls1 camaro.
now i'm curious ,i'm going to take a walk out + look at it,for room to work etc.I do know they look like new so someone should easily trade you for stockers + at the very least pick up all shipping charges too.
 
Ya they are in real nice shape.
And they come apart into 2 pieces on the passenger side,(for ease of installation i would think)+ then split again in the center of the pipe that goes under the motor.So they should come out pretty easy + the stock stuff i would think should almost install itself, well maybe not that easy,but it must not be to much of a pain if people put them in ,+ then turn around + remove them again because they don't like them.
 
FWIW in the past year or so....there is a board member that went 140 thru the quarter with the stock headers. IMHO.....any honest to goodness street car doesn't need headers. It is pretty much a waste of money......the $$ could be much better spent on other goodies.... like an alky kit or something......
 
The KB headers are not helping the car much but they are not hurting it at all, they are not like hooker's. Keep those change the converter
Mike
 
Never noticed a difference with my ATR headers. Well I did notice the ATR's NOT cracking like my stockers. :D
 
Mike Licht said:
The KB headers are not helping the car much but they are not hurting it at all, they are not like hooker's. Keep those change the converter
Mike
Click to expand...

Agreed, just swap to another converter and you will be much happier. I would not go back to stock manifolds if you already have the KBs
 
Bison and Mike and others are right. Leave the KB's alone and change that sh-ty orange stripe. Put a 2800 from Dusty in there and you'll see. By the way stock headers have been in the 9's.
 
Mike Licht said:
The KB headers are not helping the car much but they are not hurting it at all, they are not like hooker's. Keep those change the converter
Mike
Click to expand...

Have a question on the diff between,the hookers + the kb headers.
Why do the hookers kill bottom end + make the car a slug but not the kb's.

I was told that it's the kb's which is what is on the car that is killing the bottom + mid range because of loss of velocity.
Not saying one person is right + one is wrong.
Has anybody done tests showing one loses all its low end on a stock motor + 1 doesn't .
 
kenny bell dynoed a stock car with the headers and showed the gains back to back with factory manifolds not sure what they were ...... If u have lag im with bison i think u need a larger converter.
 
Crazy Turbo said:
I hear alot of good things about PTC, may just try them out. What stall would you use?
Click to expand...

You wouldnt order by stall speed. Those converters are custom built and stall speed is not the only thing taken into consideration. That is the best of the best. There are cheaper converters out there that will work but that one will have the best spoolup and coupling ability which will translate into a quicker car. The 52 needs at least 2800@zero boost/vacuum to really spool like a champ.
 
t-typinator said:
Have a question on the diff between,the hookers + the kb headers.
Why do the hookers kill bottom end + make the car a slug but not the kb's.

I was told that it's the kb's which is what is on the car that is killing the bottom + mid range because of loss of velocity.
Not saying one person is right + one is wrong.
Has anybody done tests showing one loses all its low end on a stock motor + 1 doesn't .
Click to expand...
Definetly seems to be 2 schools of thought on this issue.

One thing i want to point out which could sway opinions one way or the other is this.

when commenting on this issue, keep in mind this is a totally stock head,cam,intake,even "stock valve springs"(which i was told were checked + reinstalled at rebuild)so we are also talking about a low revving motor.+ the goal is a strong street car with strong low/mid power+ upper power.
Sometimes people playing with the 9+10 second cars for yrs may forget what the stock motor was actually like.not a shot at anyone just a reminder its a stock motor.
Now if the case is that those headers are not hurting power,then converter is the only choice.
but i 'm pretty sure they are because it's substantial lag + it does have a somewhat looser converter already.
A high stall converter isn't going to give back lost low end it just puts you in the upper rpm's quicker.so yes it will feel less sluggish on launch but is it just covering up a low end power problem.
Having the stock cam, springs etc. i would think that the top of the rpm range/peak hp is prob 4500,(I've
read that those springs have a hard time closing the valves under boost even with the stock) turbo, so it's a pretty low revver, + to just throw a 3000 converter at it,on a motor that peak hp is prob @ 4500 gives a pretty narrow power band.
I don't think the new owner wants to tear into the motor + start building it,just wants a strong responsive street car.

A few questions that may help.
1.If he just gets a 10 inch or 9.5 converter, how much is he going to "feel" that converter,not powerwise,(I agree it will make it feel stronger at lauch) I mean everyday driving,Is he going to feel it all the time(As i said i ended up hating it in my camaro)just taking off normal from the stop light etc. do you "feel that converter"all the time,having to give it more gas,to move the car + at any other drawbacks while driving(besides gas mileage) like it not wanting to shift into next gear without more throttle etc.

2.If the headers are causing alot of the lag, + are changed + it restores low+ mid range power,Will that then make the converter Thats in it,(Orange stripe)stall at a higher rpm because it now has a more powerful motor spinning it?( I know it still won't be like a 9.5 inch but will it make it stall higher then it is now?)
I have read that they don't stall where they are suposed to (I think they were rated at like 2800 or so,+ the redstripe i think was like 2600) I just wonder if some of it was a bad rap because some people may have put in headers + or cam etc. at the same time as the converter + lost low end velocity,from the headers,+ got sluggish,+ not realizing,blamed it on the converter.

I guess the biggest ?'s here are.
1.Will going back to stock manifolds restore low end power.
2.How much will the small converter be felt, + affect drivability.
3.If the headers are killing low end power,+ they are changed + now its making more low end will it make the converter in it stall higher, therefore giving it even less lag.
4. why do some say hookers kill the low end but that the kb's wouldn't,Are the kb's smaller diameter pipes etc.

Here is my take on what's happening,from driving it + talking with local guys who have,seen it etc.
I think it is a combination of a few things,too much header for the combo(stock manifolds can go 9's + supply good low end too,Why have big tubes on a stock motor) causing the low velocity, which causes the big turbine to spool even slower,causing weak low end power which then causes,low converter rpm stall. 1 item working against the other.
I feel a big converter could just be thrown at the problem,+ yes you get a better launch,but have to live with the loose converter.(Which may or may not be a problem)
I don't feel that there is a gain from the headers in this case + a very good chance that they are hurting low end performance, so being the methodical person i am I would try to get the right combo,go back to stock manifolds,(shouldn't cost anything because of trading)then see if you have a loose enough converter,(+ it may not be) but i also feel that on the street the lowest stall that you can get away with(as long as it allows you to make good power)the better off you are for drivability. so eliminate the exhaust part of the equation, then you will know if a new converter is needed.Which i would think a good quality 1 is $350 ish.


But there is a lot of if's there,
If there is no drawback to a 3000 rpm converter,then trow it on.
If the headers arn't killing low end power then the stockers won't help anything.
If i were going to put ported heads,roller cam,intake,etc in the future,then i would keep the headers because then the extra flow could prob be utilized + go high stall converter.
You could also just put in the new converter,+ if you don't like that,then put the old one back in + try the exhaust thing.

Oh ! what to do, what to do,. Man!! glad i sold this car

Just kidding! Thats actually part of the fun of owning performance cars, Making them faster + seeing what works + what doesn't.
 
Ps ,Thanks everybody for your help/feedback.
I appreciate it + i'm sure the new owner does too.
 
t-typinator said:
Definetly seems to be 2 schools of thought on this issue.

One thing i want to point out which could sway opinions one way or the other is this.

when commenting on this issue, keep in mind this is a totally stock head,cam,intake,even "stock valve springs"(which i was told were checked + reinstalled at rebuild)so we are also talking about a low revving motor.+ the goal is a strong street car with strong low/mid power+ upper power.
Sometimes people playing with the 9+10 second cars for yrs may forget what the stock motor was actually like.not a shot at anyone just a reminder its a stock motor.
Now if the case is that those headers are not hurting power,then converter is the only choice.
but i 'm pretty sure they are because it's substantial lag + it does have a somewhat looser converter already.
A high stall converter isn't going to give back lost low end it just puts you in the upper rpm's quicker.so yes it will feel less sluggish on launch but is it just covering up a low end power problem.
Having the stock cam, springs etc. i would think that the top of the rpm range/peak hp is prob 4500,(I've
read that those springs have a hard time closing the valves under boost even with the stock) turbo, so it's a pretty low revver, + to just throw a 3000 converter at it,on a motor that peak hp is prob @ 4500 gives a pretty narrow power band.
I don't think the new owner wants to tear into the motor + start building it,just wants a strong responsive street car.

A few questions that may help.
1.If he just gets a 10 inch or 9.5 converter, how much is he going to "feel" that converter,not powerwise,(I agree it will make it feel stronger at lauch) I mean everyday driving,Is he going to feel it all the time(As i said i ended up hating it in my camaro)just taking off normal from the stop light etc. do you "feel that converter"all the time,having to give it more gas,to move the car + at any other drawbacks while driving(besides gas mileage) like it not wanting to shift into next gear without more throttle etc.

2.If the headers are causing alot of the lag, + are changed + it restores low+ mid range power,Will that then make the converter Thats in it,(Orange stripe)stall at a higher rpm because it now has a more powerful motor spinning it?( I know it still won't be like a 9.5 inch but will it make it stall higher then it is now?)
I have read that they don't stall where they are suposed to (I think they were rated at like 2800 or so,+ the redstripe i think was like 2600) I just wonder if some of it was a bad rap because some people may have put in headers + or cam etc. at the same time as the converter + lost low end velocity,from the headers,+ got sluggish,+ not realizing,blamed it on the converter.

I guess the biggest ?'s here are.
1.Will going back to stock manifolds restore low end power.
2.How much will the small converter be felt, + affect drivability.
3.If the headers are killing low end power,+ they are changed + now its making more low end will it make the converter in it stall higher, therefore giving it even less lag.
4. why do some say hookers kill the low end but that the kb's wouldn't,Are the kb's smaller diameter pipes etc.

Here is my take on what's happening,from driving it + talking with local guys who have,seen it etc.
I think it is a combination of a few things,too much header for the combo(stock manifolds can go 9's + supply good low end too,Why have big tubes on a stock motor) causing the low velocity, which causes the big turbine to spool even slower,causing weak low end power which then causes,low converter rpm stall. 1 item working against the other.
I feel a big converter could just be thrown at the problem,+ yes you get a better launch,but have to live with the loose converter.(Which may or may not be a problem)
I don't feel that there is a gain from the headers in this case + a very good chance that they are hurting low end performance, so being the methodical person i am I would try to get the right combo,go back to stock manifolds,(shouldn't cost anything because of trading)then see if you have a loose enough converter,(+ it may not be) but i also feel that on the street the lowest stall that you can get away with(as long as it allows you to make good power)the better off you are for drivability. so eliminate the exhaust part of the equation, then you will know if a new converter is needed.Which i would think a good quality 1 is $350 ish.


But there is a lot of if's there,
If there is no drawback to a 3000 rpm converter,then trow it on.
If the headers arn't killing low end power then the stockers won't help anything.
If i were going to put ported heads,roller cam,intake,etc in the future,then i would keep the headers because then the extra flow could prob be utilized + go high stall converter.
You could also just put in the new converter,+ if you don't like that,then put the old one back in + try the exhaust thing.

Oh ! what to do, what to do,. Man!! glad i sold this car

Just kidding! Thats actually part of the fun of owning performance cars, Making them faster + seeing what works + what doesn't.
Click to expand...
Simple answer to the converter question. More turbo=converter swap if you want the crisp spoolup. How deep your wallet is and how much you care about your cars performance will determine whats best for you. The best is never the cheapest. The most expensive isnt the best either. Losing 2 mpg would mean little to a guy who drove his car a few thousand miles a year. The high performance car market is no place to look for economy. If one wants that they can by a Prius. For most on a limited budget the stock turbo will go a long way.
 
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