Turbo redesign for a carb turbo system

[charlief1]

The only markings are on the 86-87 housings. It's a .63 AR. Maybe Rich can chime in here and give us some of his knowledge? The 86 exducer has a slightly larger outlet but the what I haven't shown yet is the difference between overall length. The 86 wheel is shorter and I don't think it would work in the original carb/turbo housing. I haven't had the time to call Phill yet to ask how he did it so it may still be possible.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

OK, I have gone through all of mine and this is what I came up with....

I dont know about 81, 78, or 86-87 turbos, as I dont have any.

Gen 1 carb turbo: .82 A/R 79-80

Pontiac 301 turbo: .82 A/R 80-81

Gen 3 carb turbo: .63 A/R 82-83

HA GN Turbo: .63 A/R 84-85




As a matter of fact Charlie, the wastegate housing I pulled off of the system in the second pic was a .82 A/R housing. I didnt however have any good actuators.... Sorry.

A.j.

 

[charlief1]

Thanks AJ. I guess Rich is staying out of this one. I still need the waste gate housing if you're willing to get rid of it.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Thanks AJ. I guess Rich is staying out of this one. I still need the waste gate housing if you're willing to get rid of it.

Cool, I'll box-er up and get it out tomorrow.

I finally see where exactly your going with this post now..... its a bitchen idea.... I was concerned about if the 301's carbon seal plate and housing would fit and mount on the 86-87 cartridge....If it was even necessary to use the 86-87 cartridge or if the 86-87 shaft would be the same size to fit the hole as in the 301 wheel.... Does it really all happen to just match?

is it really that simple or am I missing something? what about balancing since the shaft and wheel wont match?

This is crazy good upgrade info! I just barely realized it!

Charlie = Genius.

A.j.

 

[charlief1]

LOL Thanks AJ but I started this from an idea off of Philbilt. He's the one that gave me the idea. The center sections of all the early T3 turbos are all the same except for the adapter to the intake side. Same bushing, same seals, ect. The differences are the wheels and the housings. I'll post a side veiw of the exducer wheels tomorow if I get the chance so you can see what the actual diffs are. The top veiw doesn't really show what I found when I took all of them apart and compared the sizes. With the lighter 86-87 exducer wheel and the larger 301 inducer and housing you should get much better boost and reduce the lag conciderably. As far as balancing that shouldn't be a problem. The 86-87 use the same size wheel as the 301. Sorry for the updates not coming that fast but it takes money and time which are a little scarce right now.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Sorry to rush ya, it just clicked on what the idea was. And with the info you have shown, im ready to attempt it. now to find the parts.......

A.j.

 

[charlief1]

Lol Go Aj!!!

 

[charlief1]

I'm also thinking about a pre-cooler that's water/alky mist cooled. It should drop the inlet temp just a little.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

LOL, I know Im slow! I ride the short yellow bus.

So to pre turbo misting.

I thought about that, but decided that it wasnt a good idea, I will be injecting AFTER turbo though. My thoughts were as follows...

Since we are dealing with drawthru... the air/fuel mixture is taken in by the turbo, air/fuel as we know has mass, even if it is so light we can barely measure it.. but it does! the more mass we load the turbo with the slower it is going to spool - a problem only encountered by us typicaly.... So if we add more to the mix with alcohol/water were only slowing down the turbo by forcing it to move more mass. This sounds crazy, and hard to understand... but think of your car moving through the air... the thicker it is the harder it will be for your car to go the same speed for the same amount of power! and the faster you move through something thick - the harder it becomes........ now imagine a turbo spinning at 100K rpm.... how much resistance do you think it is encountering?............Hmm..... some food for thought.

Not to mention, it just seemed like logic to me that - if you inject pre turbo where the air/fuel mixture is.... the alcohol/water mix is only going to displace the room that could be used for more fuel/air. the more **** the air is already carrying the less fuel it is going to pick up and atomize correctly. In my opinion, if i could just use the carb more as a throttle body to control idling, low/midrange fuel delivery and use a mechanical port injection as the main source of fuel under power. This should increase volume and reduce the heating during the compressing of the mixture....

Theoretically that is!

alot of this information I pulled from a Studebaker Avanti power manual.... that runs a Paxton drawthru centrifigal supercharger, Bob Sazabos guide to mechanical fuel Injection and the linear flow of air, Gene Mooneyham's Guide to highpower Roots blower systems, and the Hand Book of Hydraulics (forth edition).

:biggrin: A.j.

 

[charlief1]

LOL, I know Im slow! I ride the short yellow bus.

So to pre turbo misting.

I thought about that, but decided that it wasnt a good idea, I will be injecting AFTER turbo though. My thoughts were as follows...

Since we are dealing with drawthru... the air/fuel mixture is taken in by the turbo, air/fuel as we know has mass, even if it is so light we can barely measure it.. but it does! the more mass we load the turbo with the slower it is going to spool - a problem only encountered by us typicaly.... So if we add more to the mix with alcohol/water were only slowing down the turbo by forcing it to move more mass. This sounds crazy, and hard to understand... but think of your car moving through the air... the thicker it is the harder it will be for your car to go the same speed for the same amount of power! and the faster you move through something thick - the harder it becomes........ now imagine a turbo spinning at 100K rpm.... how much resistance do you think it is encountering?............Hmm..... some food for thought.

Not to mention, it just seemed like logic to me that - if you inject pre turbo where the air/fuel mixture is.... the alcohol/water mix is only going to displace the room that could be used for more fuel/air. the more **** the air is already carrying the less fuel it is going to pick up and atomize correctly. In my opinion, if i could just use the carb more as a throttle body to control idling, low/midrange fuel delivery and use a mechanical port injection as the main source of fuel under power. This should increase volume and reduce the heating during the compressing of the mixture....

Theoretically that is!

alot of this information I pulled from a Studebaker Avanti power manual.... that runs a Paxton drawthru centrifigal supercharger, Bob Sazabos guide to mechanical fuel Injection and the linear flow of air, Gene Mooneyham's Guide to highpower Roots blower systems, and the Hand Book of Hydraulics (forth edition).

:biggrin: A.j.

You also need to read the Bosch Automotive Engineering Handbook. It also has some good info in it. I will refer back to Smokey's experiment with the pontiac 2.5L in the the 80's. He used the turbo as a "homoginizer" to mix the fuel better with the air for a more consistant sized molocule. The other advantage of putting an alky nozle before AND after the the turbo is to homoginize the mix and under high boost conditions you have added fuel and cooling to prevent detonation. The one thing I had thought about was an idea from another post. Set up 2-3 different stages so as boost or rpm increases more alky is added to prevent the knock. This is an idea that intriges me and I think it just might work. Oh, and the idea of a "pre-cooler" would only be used under high boost to reduce knock but it can lead to icing in the carb. It could also help keep the water temp down in the radiator due to evaprivtive cooling.(I still caint speel) LOL

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Hmm, I see your point - and remember smokeys articles on the subject! Theres so many conflicting Ideas! Its going to boil down to one thing,

testing.

Time for some hard crunch numbers. Our Garage aganst the world.

A.j.

 

[charlief1]

Here's a pic of the exducer wheels. As you can see the 86 is shorter overall but the shaft is the same legnth from the back of the wheel to the tip that's threaded. The shafts are the same diameter and the step for the inducer is at the same location so using this wheel and housing isn't going to be a problem. The lighter wheel will deffinatly help spool the lturbo better. Since Aj asked about the balancing the wheels and the 301 and 86 are the same overall size and it shouldn't be a problem. I'm using a new program for the photos so we'll see how well it works.

 

[82grandBeast]

awesome work i just have a question why not just a aftermarket turbo instead all this work but definetly nice work

 

[charlief1]

Two simple reasons. 1) I'm a DIY guy and 2) these turbos are unique and no one makes an after market replacement that's a direct fit. Now on to more info.

 

[charlief1]

Now on to the mods of the intake housing. To save a little money I'm doing some of the mods myself. I used to own a machine shop so I'm not to worried about doing what you're about to see. The first pic is of the two housings side by side. Big diff in height so it needs to be cut. Here's how to do it. You will need a set of calipers and it works best to use digital. the height diff between the two is .4795" so you need to cut less than that. You see the end of the caliper on the edge of the housing. Once you get it set lock it down so you can use it to mark for the cuts. I used a knife run across the bottom of the calipers and moved the calipers around with the knife to get the markings you see next.

 

[charlief1]

Now comes the part that will make you nervous. I'm using a hand saw that takes sawzall type blades. Don't use a hack saw. The blade is to flexable and you won't get a good straight cut. Start your first cut on one of the bolt mounting bosses. l can't say this enough. IF YOU'RE NOT CAPABLE OF CUTTING STRIAGHTLY GET A SHOP TO DO THIS. This is not for the faint of heart or the unsure. Use your finger up against the blade to keep it in place so you can get a good start on the cut. Once you get the cut started and deep enough to hold the blade in place go to a second boss and line it up. Use your finger each time you move to the next boss so you can keep the cuts straight. Once all the bosses have the cuts started then you can put the blade in 2 of the cuts and cut 2 bosses at a time to keep them lined up. You will get some slight binding as you cut but don't worry, it's normal. since you aren't cutting to the actual depth that you need don't sweat it. The mounting area the the adapter bolts to will be machined once your done so the mount is square and clean. You now see the ring around the housing. It's neat, clean and even. Keep rotating it and you will need to keep this up until you've cut all the way through to the center. I'll show this once I get there but this takes a while and I haven't gotten that far as you can see. If you have a way to hold this in a vise that's great but my vise isn't that big so I have to do this in my hand. Be careful and take your time.

 

[charlief1]

OK, here's the pics of the stock intake adapter. The first is the v6 and the second is the 301. As you can see the 301 is less restricted. The only diff in the two besides the more open section is that the 301 had a divider between the primarys and secondarys for the carb. The adapter for the v6 has to be opened up for better flow so it will cut down on suply issues. I'm trying to do this as fast as I can but it does take a while. Sorry about it being slow guys. If you have any comments I'd be glad to hear them.

 

[charlief1]

Oh...Thanks for the waste gate Aj. I got it today and it looks really good.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

No biggy charlie.... I threw in the bolts off the other housing...... i dont know why but umm...... LOL I thought you might need them

A.j.

 

[charlief1]

You're right, I did. Thank you! Send me some email pics of the blown one. I'd like to see what you've done so far.