Using too much fuel

[Dan SS2471]

First..apologies to TTA308 and others for mucking up his post about spooling too fast.

Second..thank you Pacecarta - Mr. Miller and Murphster - Mr. Murphy for hanging in there with me the last 10 months. Would not have gotten to this point without your help! Also thanks to all of you who chimed in on the other thread.

Running 80lb injectors / 450 pump / TT 6.1 chip burned for (confirmed with Eric with regard to him programming it for a 6766):
-93 / ALKY
-24lbs of boost
-6766 turbo
-21/19 degrees
Innovative LC-1 WB - Bosch LSU 4.2 O2 sensor (March 2022)

Install was done April 2022...less than 300 miles ago.

Powerlogger 2.6.8 and Scanmaster 2.2. PL Analog settings are all correct for this combo.

At 24lbs of boost, duty cycle is 79-80% at 10.8 A/F.

BLMs were at 170. To keep it at or near the 10.8 A/F target, maxed WOT fuel in the chip to 157. Maintaining target but BLMs are still 141-142. That's about 32% fuel being added overall. FP is rising 1:1.

Things done since October 2022:
- new Accufab FPR
-new ptfe fuel lines (already had large return line from Racetronix)
-new fuel filter
-new FP gauge
-removed up-pipe to visually inspect dual nozzle flow. Spray pattern looks good. Controller is set to max. Test button results in a near stall at idle
-ground wire in trunk - removed / wire brushed and sanded contact area / replaced with new ring terminal
-tested flow of fuel tank vent - good flow but have it venting to air at the tank for now - above the tank
-new FP transducer - now logging FP

Volts on PL remain steady at 13.0 - 13.3. There is no Kr deep into 3rd gear (TH400) so although I'm not logging Alky pressure it appears to be working. I plan to get it tested and will also install Julio's kit to start logging.

Will also check the plugs and have the coil pack tested. Waiting to take another spin and get into the boost a little before I check the plugs.

SOTP feel...car is running strong. No driveability issues. Just can't figure out why it's using so much fuel.

Thanks....Dan

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

Any chance you could post a log for one of the runs.

 

[TTA308]

Were the BLM's 170 at WOT ?

 

[Dan SS2471]

Attached log is from a week ago after installing the FP transducer. BLMs are 149 (I said 141-142 from memory).

@TTA308 BLMs 170 @ WOT. Yes. Climbed steadily and quickly with boost and remained until I got out of it. Same now but high 140s.

Thanks...

 

[Dan SS2471]

Today I also pulled out the LC-1 to inspect it. Disconnected / reconnected. Pins and wiring look ok. Did a fresh air calibration too.

 

[hensleyt]

I did no open your log .but went back and looked at a old logs 2019. My car made 8 1/4 mile passes BLMs slowing climbing. My log book and notes reflect me having a problem I have two passes with KR. Im making corrections at 140. because it stays around 125 -135
Im making correction and two passes later its getting out of rang I correct next pass it out again.
Morale of the story it took me 8 passes and 2 weekend to find a small exhaust leak front cylinder passenger side. And it was a small leak
The first week I looked for a vacuum leak, even removed the intake.
you need to really double check everything for a leak.

 

[TTA308]

you need to really double check everything for a leak.

At first I thought the exact same thing, thats why i asked if the BLM's were that high at WOT, maybe I'm wrong but i thought if there was a Vac leak it would only show up at idle and cruise and if it was that high at WOT then it really needs more fuel?

Anyhow interesting issue...

 

[hensleyt]

At first I thought the exact same thing, thats why i asked if the BLM's were that high at WOT, maybe I'm wrong but i thought if there was a Vac leak it would only show up at idle and cruise and if it was that high at WOT then it really needs more fuel?

Anyhow interesting issue...

your correct my BLMs were128 right up to the water box. I was so fixed on the wrong side of my problem. I start down the rabbit hole I forget to pump the brakes, put the gray mater in gear. Its good to have good help. Not so sure im much help but I try.

 

[Mr.Spool]

First..apologies to TTA308 and others for mucking up his post about spooling too fast.

Second..thank you Pacecarta - Mr. Miller and Murphster - Mr. Murphy for hanging in there with me the last 10 months. Would not have gotten to this point without your help! Also thanks to all of you who chimed in on the other thread.

Running 80lb injectors / 450 pump / TT 6.1 chip burned for (confirmed with Eric with regard to him programming it for a 6766):
-93 / ALKY
-24lbs of boost
-6766 turbo
-21/19 degrees
Innovative LC-1 WB - Bosch LSU 4.2 O2 sensor (March 2022)

Install was done April 2022...less than 300 miles ago.

Powerlogger 2.6.8 and Scanmaster 2.2. PL Analog settings are all correct for this combo.

At 24lbs of boost, duty cycle is 79-80% at 10.8 A/F.

BLMs were at 170. To keep it at or near the 10.8 A/F target, maxed WOT fuel in the chip to 157. Maintaining target but BLMs are still 141-142. That's about 32% fuel being added overall. FP is rising 1:1.

Things done since October 2022:
- new Accufab FPR
-new ptfe fuel lines (already had large return line from Racetronix)
-new fuel filter
-new FP gauge
-removed up-pipe to visually inspect dual nozzle flow. Spray pattern looks good. Controller is set to max. Test button results in a near stall at idle
-ground wire in trunk - removed / wire brushed and sanded contact area / replaced with new ring terminal
-tested flow of fuel tank vent - good flow but have it venting to air at the tank for now - above the tank
-new FP transducer - now logging FP

Volts on PL remain steady at 13.0 - 13.3. There is no Kr deep into 3rd gear (TH400) so although I'm not logging Alky pressure it appears to be working. I plan to get it tested and will also install Julio's kit to start logging.

Will also check the plugs and have the coil pack tested. Waiting to take another spin and get into the boost a little before I check the plugs.

SOTP feel...car is running strong. No driveability issues. Just can't figure out why it's using so much fuel.

Thanks....Dan

I posted quite a bit in the other thread but again You cannot visually inspect alky flow.
You need to see alky pressure throughout the curve and especially wot.
If you have verified good pressure on alky and regular fuel pressure with 1to1 ramp and real wot pressure numbers
You will need an actual afr off a widewand and read the plugs in the chamber.
Eric doesn't miss the map by 20%
So my internet guess is there is an issue with the fuel system.
I have seen plenty of in tank pumps go up 1to1 and fall off at 70+psi with the alky taking up the slack and saving the motor.

 

[Mr.Spool]

If you have an alky issue like a leak
And can't read pressure you will need more out of the chip and will appear to need more alky on the controller.
These are warning signs that the fuel system is off
where is the question
When you have gauges that show alky and fuel pressure you can see in real time how healthy the fuel system is.

 

[Mr.Spool]

First..apologies to TTA308 and others for mucking up his post about spooling too fast.

Second..thank you Pacecarta - Mr. Miller and Murphster - Mr. Murphy for hanging in there with me the last 10 months. Would not have gotten to this point without your help! Also thanks to all of you who chimed in on the other thread.

Running 80lb injectors / 450 pump / TT 6.1 chip burned for (confirmed with Eric with regard to him programming it for a 6766):
-93 / ALKY
-24lbs of boost
-6766 turbo
-21/19 degrees
Innovative LC-1 WB - Bosch LSU 4.2 O2 sensor (March 2022)

Install was done April 2022...less than 300 miles ago.

Powerlogger 2.6.8 and Scanmaster 2.2. PL Analog settings are all correct for this combo.

At 24lbs of boost, duty cycle is 79-80% at 10.8 A/F.

BLMs were at 170. To keep it at or near the 10.8 A/F target, maxed WOT fuel in the chip to 157. Maintaining target but BLMs are still 141-142. That's about 32% fuel being added overall. FP is rising 1:1.

Things done since October 2022:
- new Accufab FPR
-new ptfe fuel lines (already had large return line from Racetronix)
-new fuel filter
-new FP gauge
-removed up-pipe to visually inspect dual nozzle flow. Spray pattern looks good. Controller is set to max. Test button results in a near stall at idle
-ground wire in trunk - removed / wire brushed and sanded contact area / replaced with new ring terminal
-tested flow of fuel tank vent - good flow but have it venting to air at the tank for now - above the tank
-new FP transducer - now logging FP

Volts on PL remain steady at 13.0 - 13.3. There is no Kr deep into 3rd gear (TH400) so although I'm not logging Alky pressure it appears to be working. I plan to get it tested and will also install Julio's kit to start logging.

Will also check the plugs and have the coil pack tested. Waiting to take another spin and get into the boost a little before I check the plugs.

SOTP feel...car is running strong. No driveability issues. Just can't figure out why it's using so much fuel.

Thanks....Dan

Your not using 80s at 80% duty cycle with methanol at 24psi.
Something is off sir

 

[Chuck Leeper]

If you have an alky issue like a leak
And can't read pressure you will need more out of the chip and will appear to need more alky on the controller.
These are warning signs that the fuel system is off
where is the question
When you have gauges that show alky and fuel pressure you can see in real time how healthy the fuel system is.

This!

 

[Pronto]

Personally I could NOT get the LC-1 to read O2s correctly. I did everything recommended in their support forum. For me it was a failure. Ended up going to the NGK unit. If it's wonky and reading lean, that would cause havoc with the 6.1 which takes over at something like 75% tps.

 

[Dan SS2471]

I posted quite a bit in the other thread but again You cannot visually inspect alky flow.
You need to see alky pressure throughout the curve and especially wot.
If you have verified good pressure on alky and regular fuel pressure with 1to1 ramp and real wot pressure numbers
You will need an actual afr off a widewand and read the plugs in the chamber.
Eric doesn't miss the map by 20%
So my internet guess is there is an issue with the fuel system.
I have seen plenty of in tank pumps go up 1to1 and fall off at 70+psi with the alky taking up the slack and saving the motor.

You did and thanks. I haven't had the system tested because I'm not getting knock deep into a run. But as I mentioned, I will be getting it tested and will install Julio's kit. I'm not planning on getting into any heavy boost in the short term either. As far as the visual, I mainly wanted to be sure both nozzles are spraying. I exchanged some notes with Eric...he's been aware of the issue for awhile now and points in this direction too. Scott and Paul have too. I know the chip isn't programmed incorrectly. Eric also suggested that the WB could be malfunctioning.
There's a lot that's been done to try to fix the issue and this is next in line along with the other things I mentioned and few others that have been mentioned in this new thread. The thought of the pump being bad is something I haven't come to terms with because I spent a lot of money on it and to think its a throwaway after 300 miles just bothers me. But if all else produces the same results, I'll go there.

As far as 80% on 80s. 100% on 60s was off too but I went ahead with the 80s / 450 pump. Stupid move? Maybe. Room for growth I suppose. Ultimately, the goal is to fix this issue and see low - mid 60s duty cycle.

 

[Dan SS2471]

Personally I could NOT get the LC-1 to read O2s correctly. I did everything recommended in their support forum. For me it was a failure. Ended up going to the NGK unit. If it's wonky and reading lean, that would cause havoc with the 6.1 which takes over at something like 75% tps.

Tracing this backwards...I owned this car from 2012 - 2016. Scott and I did a LOT of tuning with the 44 / 60s / 340 still installed. Had it dialed in perfectly with the LC-1. It was pretty much lights out, dead on, every run. I *think* things may have gone south when the 6766 was installed by the previous owner (I bought the car back from him last March) but I can't put the finger solely on the LC-1 obviously. But your point is also taken. Another factor. Thanks...

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

From his file at the top of the run NB is 791 and WB is 10.85...they appear to agree.

Fuel pressure is 64.6 rising normally at WOT.

BLM at idle is 118.

If it were my car I'd get a friend to come over and hit the alky test button and you look for leaks at the fittings.

Mr Spool. At WOT does the alky pump have to work harder? If so, maybe it's leaking at WOT...or the alky pump isn't up to snuff at WOT?

 

[Mr.Spool]

From his file at the top of the run NB is 791 and WB is 10.85...they appear to agree.

Fuel pressure is 64.6 rising normally at WOT.

BLM at idle is 118.

If it were my car I'd get a friend to come over and hit the alky test button and you look for leaks at the fittings.

Mr Spool. At WOT does the alky pump have to work harder? If so, maybe it's leaking at WOT...or the alky pump isn't up to snuff at WOT?

I cant see his file
So I'm going off what he is posting
Usually if you have to start cranking the alky knob it's a dead giveaway for some kind of leak in the alky system or a fuel pump is going away.
In my methanol cars i look at pressure all the time m1 is tough on everything sure flow pump is no exception.
The pump should see max pressure around 20psi.
So easy 150psi on a m15/m10 is way over their gph rating cause they rate at 100psi.
So that alot of fuel in concert with 80 lb I injector's at 80% duty cycle
Again alot of fuel fuel,
Mathematically it can be using it at 24psi with a 67 on his motor.
So something's off and or going away.
Or his boost gauge is off and it's at 34psi lol.

 

[Mr.Spool]

I cant see his file
So I'm going off what he is posting
Usually if you have to start cranking the alky knob it's a dead giveaway for some kind of leak in the alky system or a fuel pump is going away.
In my methanol cars i look at pressure all the time m1 is tough on everything sure flow pump is no exception.
The pump should see max pressure around 20psi.
So easy 150psi on a m15/m10 is way over their gph rating cause they rate at 100psi.
So that alot of fuel in concert with 80 lb I injector's at 80% duty cycle
Again alot of fuel fuel,
Mathematically it can be using it at 24psi with a 67 on his motor.
So something's off and or going away.
Or his boost gauge is off and it's at 34psi lol.

Sorry it can't be using that kind of fuel
These smartphones are always smart

 

[Mr.Spool]

From his file at the top of the run NB is 791 and WB is 10.85...they appear to agree.

Fuel pressure is 64.6 rising normally at WOT.

BLM at idle is 118.

If it were my car I'd get a friend to come over and hit the alky test button and you look for leaks at the fittings.

Mr Spool. At WOT does the alky pump have to work harder? If so, maybe it's leaking at WOT...or the alky pump isn't up to snuff at WOT?

A cracked fitting will leak more as pressure tries to climb.
The nozzle only needs to see 40 50 psi to give say 6gph so guys can assume it's working cause they dont see leaks from the pump.
But fittings do crack and can cause pressure loss.
These weaknesses in the fuel system start to show right around the boost level the op is at.
It's when you start turning it up it drops right off a cliff and things get messy especially as the car sees higher rpm and more load going faster down the track around 1000ft.

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

Fuel pressure from his file is correct for his boost level...that's why Im thinking it's alky related.