Using too much fuel

[Dan SS2471]

I picked up Autolite AR133s but am a little concerned about them being non-resistor due to my stock ignition. Read a few threads about issues with ECMs / Powerlogger. Store only had 4 last night so I'll install the other two today. They're gapped at .025 for now. I'll make sure no chip settings get reset after the first fire up and if all good will do some driving. If no issues will grab a log at boost.

I also ordered a set of NGK YR5s from Amazon. @Pronto and @1KWIKSIX - I've run up to 130MPH (not in the 1/4) at 24lbs of boost. Would there be any concerns with these plugs at that level?

Thanks...

 

[dynoman]

I picked up Autolite AR133s but am a little concerned about them being non-resistor due to my stock ignition. Read a few threads about issues with ECMs / Powerlogger

I had this problem of the motor breaking up with non resistor plugs at 15psi .

 

[Dan SS2471]

I had this problem of the motor breaking up with non resistor plugs at 15psi .

Thanks. I saw your post about them being suggested but didn't see if you installed them. Good to know.

 

[dynoman]

Thanks. I saw your post about them being suggested but didn't see if you installed them. Good to know.

I had non resistor plugs in the car for under 10 miles !! Once around the block ( big block ) and one wot blast that couldn't get past 15psi without breaking up , got home and changed them out and problem went away .

 

[Mr.Spool]

I had this problem of the motor breaking up with non resistor plugs at 15psi .

Your not the only one

 

[Mr.Spool]

I picked up Autolite AR133s but am a little concerned about them being non-resistor due to my stock ignition. Read a few threads about issues with ECMs / Powerlogger. Store only had 4 last night so I'll install the other two today. They're gapped at .025 for now. I'll make sure no chip settings get reset after the first fire up and if all good will do some driving. If no issues will grab a log at boost.

I also ordered a set of NGK YR5s from Amazon. @Pronto and @1KWIKSIX - I've run up to 130MPH (not in the 1/4) at 24lbs of boost. Would there be any concerns with these plugs at that level?

Thanks...

The issue is with stock ecm

 

[Dan SS2471]

A follow up in case the AR133s are searched again. I went ahead with them and didn't have any issues. Made 22.7lbs of boost.

I found the NGK YR5s on Amazon for $25 for a pack of 8 (part no 7052) which will be here on the 23rd.

I don't plan to do much more driving until I get the Alky tested because last night's results were more of the same that I described in my first post. High D.C. and BLMs.

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

This just came to mind. Years ago a did a group order from a vendor. I ordered the last 3 Denso 02 sensors they had. Race gas eats sensors alive so I swapped the sendor after 2 race weekends whether it needed it or not. I swap in a new sensor, load the car on the trailer and head to the track. Unload the car and take it for a drive around the return road to get it up to temperature and return to the trailer. Toggle through the SM and the BLM's are pegged(high). WTF. Let the engine cool for an hour and swap in another sensor...warm it up...same thing. Getting dark so I load up and head home. Swap in another new sensor the next day...same thing. New fuel pump I had and swapped it in...same thing. I'm ready to torch the car and Steve Wood talks me off the ledge and I go out and buy a new sensor from the local parts shop. Swap it in...warm it up...and BLM's are back to 122. I bought a bad batch of sensors. With 6.1 the WB sensor takes over at 70 percent throttle. I'm not saying the WB is flakey, but I think I'd try a new one if all else fails.

 

[Dan SS2471]

This just came to mind. Years ago a did a group order from a vendor. I ordered the last 3 Denso 02 sensors they had. Race gas eats sensors alive so I swapped the sendor after 2 race weekends whether it needed it or not. I swap in a new sensor, load the car on the trailer and head to the track. Unload the car and take it for a drive around the return road to get it up to temperature and return to the trailer. Toggle through the SM and the BLM's are pegged(high). WTF. Let the engine cool for an hour and swap in another sensor...warm it up...same thing. Getting dark so I load up and head home. Swap in another new sensor the next day...same thing. New fuel pump I had and swapped it in...same thing. I'm ready to torch the car and Steve Wood talks me off the ledge and I go out and buy a new sensor from the local parts shop. Swap it in...warm it up...and BLM's are back to 122. I bought a bad batch of sensors. With 6.1 the WB sensor takes over at 70 percent throttle. I'm not saying the WB is flakey, but I think I'd try a new one if all else fails.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. I went through all of the logs I've taken since I bought the car in March. Can't believe it's been almost a year. When I bought the car, the WB O2 sensor was shot. I did grab a log anyway. Let's use 22lbs of boost as a reference for the examples I'm giving.

Bad WB O2:
BLMs - 170
Duty Cycle - 104%
WB AFR - 14s - not surprising
Base WOT in chip - 128

Replace WB O2 sensor with Bosch LSU 4.2:
BLMs - 170
Duty Cycle - 104%
WB AFR - 10.8 - 11.2 - much better
Base WOT in chip - 128

Add dual nozzles:
BLMs - 153 - much better. Base WOT in chip still set to 128
Duty Cycle - 94% - better..but too high
WB AFR - 10.8 - 11.2
Base WOT in chip - 128

This shows the most improvement / difference to date aside from bumping WOT to 157 in the chip. This was WOT still set to 128. I think it shows that the Alky is doing it's job BUT....don't yell at me Mr. Spool....I AM going to get it tested.

Then the 80s / 450 pump / new 6.1 chip went in. Base WOT 128.

BLMs - 170
Duty Cycle - 72.5% - too high
WB AFR - 10.8 - 11.2 - not staying on target
Base WOT in chip - 128

The 200 quit and did the TH400 / PTC swap. Higher boost, full WOT to 5850 RPM:

24lbs of boost
BLMs - 170
Duty Cycle - 79% - too high
WB AFR - 10.8 - 11.2 - not staying on target
MPH - 130
RPM - 5850
Base WOT in chip - 128

Bump WOT fuel up to 157. Back to 22lbs of boost and not a full WOT run. Pretty much where I'm at now.

BLMs - 149 - improvement but still adding 32% fuel overall
Duty Cycle - 76% - still too high
WB AFR - 10.8 +/- better

So I think my point is that you may be onto something. BLMs at 170 being the sticking point. I did pull the LC-1 out last weekend to inspect the connector pins and wiring harness of the sensor. That all 'looks' ok. I did a fresh air recalibration too. Eric also said to consider the sensor. Too bad they're 30 bucks more expensive than last March! So added to the Alky testing / installing a transducer...I can add possible bad O2 sensor...and also bad LC-1 while we're at it.

 

[TTA308]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What was the NB showing during all this ?

 

[Dan SS2471]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What was the NB showing during all this ?

7.x - 8.x consistently. Before and after the WB O2 sensor swap and chip swap.

 

[Mr.Spool]

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. I went through all of the logs I've taken since I bought the car in March. Can't believe it's been almost a year. When I bought the car, the WB O2 sensor was shot. I did grab a log anyway. Let's use 22lbs of boost as a reference for the examples I'm giving.

Bad WB O2:
BLMs - 170
Duty Cycle - 104%
WB AFR - 14s - not surprising
Base WOT in chip - 128

Replace WB O2 sensor with Bosch LSU 4.2:
BLMs - 170
Duty Cycle - 104%
WB AFR - 10.8 - 11.2 - much better
Base WOT in chip - 128

Add dual nozzles:
BLMs - 153 - much better. Base WOT in chip still set to 128
Duty Cycle - 94% - better..but too high
WB AFR - 10.8 - 11.2
Base WOT in chip - 128

This shows the most improvement / difference to date aside from bumping WOT to 157 in the chip. This was WOT still set to 128. I think it shows that the Alky is doing it's job BUT....don't yell at me Mr. Spool....I AM going to get it tested.

Then the 80s / 450 pump / new 6.1 chip went in. Base WOT 128.

BLMs - 170
Duty Cycle - 72.5% - too high
WB AFR - 10.8 - 11.2 - not staying on target
Base WOT in chip - 128

The 200 quit and did the TH400 / PTC swap. Higher boost, full WOT to 5850 RPM:

24lbs of boost
BLMs - 170
Duty Cycle - 79% - too high
WB AFR - 10.8 - 11.2 - not staying on target
MPH - 130
RPM - 5850
Base WOT in chip - 128

Bump WOT fuel up to 157. Back to 22lbs of boost and not a full WOT run. Pretty much where I'm at now.

BLMs - 149 - improvement but still adding 32% fuel overall
Duty Cycle - 76% - still too high
WB AFR - 10.8 +/- better

So I think my point is that you may be onto something. BLMs at 170 being the sticking point. I did pull the LC-1 out last weekend to inspect the connector pins and wiring harness of the sensor. That all 'looks' ok. I did a fresh air recalibration too. Eric also said to consider the sensor. Too bad they're 30 bucks more expensive than last March! So added to the Alky testing / installing a transducer...I can add possible bad O2 sensor...and also bad LC-1 while we're at it.

Th wb on pump gas alky doesnt take a shit like it does on race gas.
2 different fuel
But as cheap as they it's worth a try no harm and nothing wrong with having a spare

 

[Dan SS2471]

Was reading the LC-1 guide last night. I only did a free air calibration when I installed the new sensor (and last weekend when I did another calibration). They instruct you to do a heated calibration first and then a free air when installing the unit initially or when replacing the sensor. Going to give it a try. Other things still being on the list of TO DOs.

 

[dynoman]

Was reading the LC-1 guide last night. I only did a free air calibration when I installed the new sensor (and last weekend when I did another calibration). They instruct you to do a heated calibration first and then a free air when installing the unit initially or when replacing the sensor. Going to give it a try. Other things still being on the list of TO DOs.

Should have got a AEM wideband , no calibration and no problems after 5 years . When I put in my new motor I replaced the sensor also , but it wasn't needed . This is what I used .

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/avm-30-0310

 

[Dan SS2471]

Should have got a AEM wideband , no calibration and no problems after 5 years . When I put in my new motor I replaced the sensor also , but it wasn't needed . This is what I used .

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/avm-30-0310

Yeah..I hear you. I didn't install the LC-1. It's been installed since at least 2011 (probably prior) when I bought the car the first time from Murph. I don't know AEM's product history so LC-1 might have been the best show in town at that time. Sometimes it makes sense to change things up and sometimes you're forced into it when something breaks. We'll see if the latter is the case for me. I don't take recommendations from members here lightly so consider this one to be in the memory bank now. Thx.

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

I had a WB in my car for a short period of time. It was constantly needing recalibration. Ended up taking it out as I didn't trust it.

 

[BEATAV8]

For ref.... I looked up some data files I have from an 89 turbo TA. At the time car had 80's on it with an alky kit. During the first session we found that although the alky kit was working, it was not delivering alky the way it needed to. It was an old pump.
Data with that condition shows:
20psi boost. 15.5 degrees advance. AFR 10.8. 0 activity on the knock sensor.
70% duty @ 6100RPM
60% duty @ 4900RPM
Car was running out well at the time, but was essentially tuned for 93 since the alky wasn't flowing much.
Soon after it was converted to E85, keeping the same injectors and ditching the alky kit.
On E85 it was running 70% duty @ 4500RPM with 20psi, 77% duty @ 5000RPM. 86% @ 5600RPM, AFR 7.4 (11.1 equivalent) and spark advance around 17 deg.

 

[Dan SS2471]

Happy to report that the Heater Calibration resolved the issue. Next up, Alky testing / logging. Perhaps switching out the LC-1 with something that will make tuning easier. FAST / XFI / ECUGN. Will talk to Paul and Murph about that.

You'll see mid-boost is very rich. Will tune that when the Alky is tested / logged along with WOT fuel in the chip.

Thanks again, all.

For reference to those who might be using LC-1. If you change sensor, DO THE HEATER CALIBRATION. If I'm the only one who didn't know that, that's ok. I know it now:

3.1 Heater Calibration 1. Remove the sensor from the exhaust, the sensor needs to be in free air for this procedure. 2. Disconnected the sensor from the LC-1’s sensor connector. 3. Switch 12V supply to the LC-1 ON. The LED will flash a two blink sequence with a 2 second pause during this time. Leave the unit powered ON for 20 seconds. 4. Switch the 12V supply off after 20 seconds. 5. Connect the sensor to the LC-1’s sensor interface connector but do not put the sensor in the exhaust. The sensor must be removed from the exhaust and exposed to free air for this calibration. 6. Switch the 12V supply to the LC-1 ON. The LED will first blink steady about 2 times/second: indicating that the sensor is warming up. The LED will then start a faster blinking sequence about 4 times/second indicating a Heater calibration. When the Heater Calibration is done the LED will light up and remain solid. 7. While the sensor is still removed from the exhaust perform a free air calibration.

 

[Dan SS2471]

Screenshot showing INJ D.C.

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

Read what Eric recommends to do for mid boost.