Vin stamped on frame??

[G NASTY]

Iam doing a body off on my car and bought a doner NA regal for some parts. My frame needs the washers welded in. It also has some pitting but not really sure of the extent until I lift the body. The na frame seems to be very solid and pretty rust free. From reading here it's the same frame as the turbo car. My question is my body off car is a matching numbers car and don't know if I want to compromise that to save some work. So is the vin stamped in the frame somewhere ? What would you guys do? Thanks John

 

[S10xGN]

Iam doing a body off on my car and bought a doner NA regal for some parts. My frame needs the washers welded in. It also has some pitting but not really sure of the extent until I lift the body. The na frame seems to be very solid and pretty rust free. From reading here it's the same frame as the turbo car. My question is my body off car is a matching numbers car and don't know if I want to compromise that to save some work. So is the vin stamped in the frame somewhere ? What would you guys do? Thanks John

IIRC, there is a VIN stamped on top of the rail around "kick-up" area where the left rear tire is. Someone with more GN experience will pipe up if that's incorrect. If it were me, I'd cut that part off the old frame and either store it or possibly tack weld it somewhere near that place on the "new" frame.

 

[charlief1]

If it's true then I agree but I've never heard of one being on the frame. Maybe Turbofish38 will join in here at some point.

 

[Just a Six??]

With so many Regals & choices of models & options etc. I doubt there is a Vin stamped on it. I could see Part Number but Vin?? never heard that one before?

 

[turbobuick]

It is on the top side of both frame rails between the body and the frame close to where the trans x-member is. You can't see it without the body off and a lot of times they can be rusted away. What you CAN see though is the date code for when the frame was built and it is located on the back of the rear x-member above the rearend housing. IMO I would use the original frame. Have it blasted and repair the body mounts. The frame from the NA car will still likely need at least one of the body mounts repaired. Unless you have rust holes or crash damage I would use the original frame.

 

[INEEDAGN]

I've heard of it. Supposed to be on top of the rail by the drivers door. Never verified though, doubt anyone else ever would either.

 

[phillyturbosix]

turbobuick is correct. Sometimes you can use a mirror to see it. It's pretty much under the drivers seat on the frame.

One thing I don't understand with these cars is why people worry about numbers matching. It really means nothing on these cars and does not effect the value of these cars one penny. Turbo Buick's are not cars that you could order a different engine, trans, or rear. They were all the same. If you had a 70 GTO Judge with an engine, trans, and rear that was rare then yea.. you would want that numbers matching block with the car. With a turbo Buick it means nothing. These cars had the living balls beat out of them from every owner, new car salesman, and used car salesman. So the odds are on most of them the numbers are not matching. It's a 3.8 block that went in every car that they made over 50,000 of them over the years. So don't get caught up in numbers matching on these cars. It really means nothing.

I would do what's more easy to do. It sounds like your other frame is the way to go.

 

[turbofish38]

Well if your going for numbers correct than you have a slight delima. There is a VIN stamped on the frame along with a build date and assembly code. I just happened to have a 87 TR frame here so I took some pics showing exactly where all the numbers are stamped as far as 85-87 Turbo Regals go.

Okay the VIN is stamped on top of the passenger side rail between body mount positions 2 and 3. It's only the last half of the VIN. In our example 4HP411238 translates to
4=Buick
H=1987
P=Pontiac MI assembly line
411238=last 6 of the VIN

And there just happens to be a build date stamped on the frame too. On the rear suspension crossmember, on the rear face on the passenger side. In our example the stampings translate to
14103516=Part Number of the Frame Assembly
HS=Frame assembly code. This number can also be found in the rear wheel house section. There should be a plastic tag on each side. The correct code for the 86-87 Turbo Regal frame is HS. Most 86-87 NA Regal and Cutlass frames use code HK. These tags are pressed in so they swap out easily. Kind of hard to restamp the frame. Also the HS code would be on the Build Sheet.
390 1 1=Some type of sequence or time build code.
(S) 8 20 86=Build date. August 20,1986

As you can see this car was a fairly early build as it has a low VIN sequence to match the date code on the frame. I've found that this date code is fairly accurate when comparing it to the build date on the cowl tag too. Usually on the same week any way.

Now this only applies to the Pontiac MI built cars. I stuffed a 83 T-Type frame under my 82 Regal 455 car and those two cars were built in Flint MI and they are missing the build date and have the VIN stamped on the drivers side rail.

FWIW When ever the subject of the frame VIN comes up there are always the pundits out there who scream that "The Man" is going to get you one way or another if you swap the frames because of the VIN stamping. All I have to say is what is "The Man" going to do when he doesn't find what he is looking for? I had to scrap a lifes worth of rust just to find that faint stamping in the pic. IMO nobody is going to go through the trouble to check the VIN.

 

[turbobuick]

The 86 T-type I just did a frame off resto on had the vin stamped on both driver and passenger frame rails.

 

[GNBRETT]

turbobuick is correct. Sometimes you can use a mirror to see it. It's pretty much under the drivers seat on the frame.

One thing I don't understand with these cars is why people worry about numbers matching. It really means nothing on these cars and does not effect the value of these cars one penny. Turbo Buick's are not cars that you could order a different engine, trans, or rear. They were all the same. If you had a 70 GTO Judge with an engine, trans, and rear that was rare then yea.. you would want that numbers matching block with the car. With a turbo Buick it means nothing. These cars had the living balls beat out of them from every owner, new car salesman, and used car salesman. So the odds are on most of them the numbers are not matching. It's a 3.8 block that went in every car that they made over 50,000 of them over the years. So don't get caught up in numbers matching on these cars. It really means nothing.

I would do what's more easy to do. It sounds like your other frame is the way to go.

Exactly. Numbers mean squat when ALL had the same motor.

 

[turbobuick]

Exactly. Numbers mean squat when ALL had the same motor.

Kinda like they ALL came from the factory with ****ty paint therefore my repaint is worth more?

 

[usetaboost]

What exactly is wrong with the frame? Seems like the bad body holes are a common issue so I wouldn't expect the n/a car to be any different. I fixed mine. Easiest thing I did on the car so far. Cut out the rust on the rear frame rails and patched that in too. If you looked underneath where the repair is I bet you wouldn't notice. In my opinion it wouldn't be worth the time and the extra mess lying around to pull that other frame out if you can fix yours easily.

 

[turbodave231]

I did a rebuild on a wrecked GN that I bought from a friend of mine after his son wrapped it around a light pole.

The front clip and frame were rather banana shaped. I found an 85 T-type that donated its front sheet metal and frame so that the GN could live. The car turned out very nice. I later sold the GN and disclosed the repair. I gave the new owner the title for the GN and the title for the donor T Type. That car is still out there somewhere!!

I beleive frame swaps are OK as long as you can prove how you obtained the replacement frame. It is not legal to change the VIN on any vehicle, but you're not trying to change the original VIN, You are trying to preserve the original VIN. In fact GM offered a Regal service frame at one time. Swapping frames shouldn't be any different that any other component marked with a VIN (like engine or transmission).

Another suggestion, if your original frame is really that bad, find the VIN info on your frame, cut that area out. Finish the metal up nice and cut out the VIN on the donor frame. Carefully TIG weld the metal with original VIN onto the donor frame. A little metal finishing and you have a restored frame!!

Document the repair with pictures......don't try to hide what you did, just explain why it was done. ... and you should be fine. Sometimes it is easier to ask for forgiveness rather than permission!!!

 

["Turbo-T"]

One thing I don't understand with these cars is why people worry about numbers matching. It really means nothing on these cars and does not effect the value of these cars one penny. Turbo Buick's are not cars that you could order a different engine, trans, or rear. They were all the same. If you had a 70 GTO Judge with an engine, trans, and rear that was rare then yea.. you would want that numbers matching block with the car. With a turbo Buick it means nothing. These cars had the living balls beat out of them from every owner, new car salesman, and used car salesman. So the odds are on most of them the numbers are not matching. It's a 3.8 block that went in every car that they made over 50,000 of them over the years. So don't get caught up in numbers matching on these cars. It really means nothing.

People worry about numbers matching because they think the car will be worth more if it is. Which to a collector, I would think so. Regardless if they all had the same engine, tranny, rear, bad paint, crappy powermaster, etc.

Yes they may have had the snot beat out of them....so did every 70 GTO....70 Chevelle SS....69 Camaro SS....IMO the TR is following in the footsteps of the 70 Chevelle and the 69 Camaro. Heck look at what some of the NOS GN parts are bringing...for an otherwise run of the mill turbo Buick.

 

[Dennis Kirban]

kirban 2 cents worth

While on the subject....

The one group of owners where every number must match and has probably set the bar so high is the Corvette group.....they can even tell you if the wheel weights on your rims came form the factory. They have even gone so fas as to register or trademark the word survivor....if you notice when that word is used related to cars it has a r in a circle usually.

Over the years this mentality has trickled down to other performance cars notably A body cars Buick GTOs etc...one reason we did original date coded packard plug wires about 15 years ago.

Every car manufacturer as far as I know puts the vin somewhere on the frame. I recall years ago that the cops have some sort of book probably on computer now that shows them where the vin is located in every year every model car/truck etc.

I agree on a turbo buick I would not be that concerned. I do know whenever I would buy a GNX I made sure the block number matched the VIN number.

just a few related thoughts...

kirban

 

[turbofish38]

While on the subject....

The one group of owners where every number must match and has probably set the bar so high is the Corvette group.....they can even tell you if the wheel weights on your rims came form the factory. They have even gone so fas as to register or trademark the word survivor....if you notice when that word is used related to cars it has a r in a circle usually.

Over the years this mentality has trickled down to other performance cars notably A body cars Buick GTOs etc...one reason we did original date coded packard plug wires about 15 years ago.

Watch it! Somebody might tag you for using that trademark. LOL.

Two distinct Corvette groups out there. N.C.R.S. and Bloomington Gold. Read all about it here Survivor Collector Car
And it's just not for Corvettes anymore. Anything with four wheels and the right stuff can be a survivor.


I some what agree with the so-called Survivor mentality. In principal anyway. Kind of hard to take that tubbed and caged 8-9 second TR and turn it back into a survivor. Just the thought of maybe someday that my GN is worth bigger bucks just because I didn't hack it up in quest of that single digit time slip keeps me searching for new information to share with those of you that are interested in this type of stuff anyway. Time will tell.

 

[usetaboost]

I'm always interested in information

 

[turbofish38]

To add to this Numbers Matching whackiness.....here's I another date coded part I ran across just today. This is a steel rear bumper reinforcement. Date Code 11-20-85. Now this just happens to be a very good example of how out of control this numbers matching game can get. I pulled this reinforcement off a black GN bumper that was going out to the powder coater. What's unusual with that, you ask? Well the only black painted bumpers with a steel reinforcement were used on 87 GNs. Somebody had this bumper apart at one time.

I've noticed date codes on a lot of parts. If I get the time I might post a thread in the Restoration forum of what I have so far. And people can add to it as they find something new.

 

[phillyturbosix]

Here is one for you.... I just sent 18 stock GN rims out to the Tru-Design wheel for cores and 3 of them were dated 10-15-1988. Hard to believe they were still making GN rims that late after they were done.

 

[Dennis Kirban]

kirban 2 cents worth

I am sure they probably date coded a lot of things as I have that GM Buick book that shows the various ate codes and how to read them for parts on our cars.

It runs about 175 pages all engine related. I know wheels are date coded and are a big thing in Corvette circles...

Someone could package 1986-1987 stale air and pump it into their tires and presto have everything correct.


High dollar restoriations no matter what car is involved is a major hunting trip for owners that seek out proper date codes to match their project.....

Problem is some of them when done never get to enjoy it once the hunt is over and you see these less than 1,000 miles resto cars being sold.

kirban